Truman Library - Fred L. Lee Oral History Interview

Harry S. Truman Presidential Library and Museum

Oral History Interview with
Fred L. Lee

Historian, son of an acquaintance of President Truman.

Independence, Missouri
July 23, 1991
by Niel M. Johnson

[Notices and Restrictions | Interview Transcript | List of Subjects Discussed]

NOTICE
This is a transcript of a tape-recorded interview conducted for the Harry S. Truman Library. A draft of this transcript was edited by the interviewee but only minor emendations were made; therefore, the reader should remember that this is essentially a transcript of the spoken, rather than the written word.

Numbers appearing in square brackets (ex. [45]) within the transcript indicate the pagination in the original, hardcopy version of the Lee oral history interview.

RESTRICTIONS
This oral history transcript may be read, quoted from, cited, and reproduced for purposes of research. It may not be published in full except by permission of the Harry S. Truman Library.

Opened May, 1997
Harry S. Truman Library
Independence, Missouri

[Top of the Page | Notices and Restrictions | Interview Transcript | List of Subjects Discussed]

Oral History Interview with
Fred L. Lee

Independence, Missouri
July 23, 1991
by Niel M. Johnson

[1]

JOHNSON: I'm going to start out by asking you when and where you were born and what your parents names are.

LEE: My full name is Frederick Lyman Lee II. I'm named for my grandfather, Frederick Lyman Lee I, obviously. Our family first came to Kansas City in 1869 and has been here ever since. The family was in the lumber business, owning the Lee-Lyman lumber yards up until the 1930s.

Myself, I was born on October 7, 1935 here in Kansas City. I grew up in Kansas City, with the exception of World War II years when my dad was in the Army.

JOHNSON: What are your dad's and mother's names?

[2]

LEE: My dad's name is John Morton Lee and mother's name is Jean Elizabeth Moore Lee. They too were born in Kansas City like myself.

JOHNSON: You mentioned the lumber business. Do you know if they had any acquaintance at all with the [George Porterfield] Gates family, since Gates started in the lumber business here about 1867 in Kansas City?

LEE: The family probably did. I think they were certainly aware of them, because when my great grandfather came here in 1869 he worked for J.W. Merrill, who had a lumber yard where the old Emery Bird Thayer store was located, and which now is the site of United Missouri Bank. My great grandfather, Herbert Morris Lee, was bookkeeper for them and then he eventually owned his own yards. So, I'm sure that they were knowledgeable probably of each other. I don't think that there is any connection there, since Independence and Kansas City were quite a ways apart.

JOHNSON: Yes. And Gates got into the milling business over in Independence. I have a letter here, a copy, from the Post-Presidential Papers at the Truman Library; it's in the Post-Presidential General File, dated November 23, 1962, a letter from John M. Lee,

[3]

Lieutenant Colonel U.S.A.R. retired, to Harry Truman. Colonel Lee is your father. Are you acquainted with that particular piece of correspondence?

LEE: Not the correspondence, but I certainly remember the incident and dad still, I'm sure, has that.

JOHNSON: In his reply on December 4, Harry Truman says "I have autographed your Certificate of appointment to the grade of Lieutenant Colonel in the Army Reserve and it is enclosed herewith. I was glad to sign it for you and appreciate the fact that you wanted me to do so."

Almost a year later, on November 20, 1963, Harry Truman wrote, "Dear Colonel Lee: I deeply appreciate your interest and participation in the Hall which was set up in my honor. Naturally it makes a man wonder why people continue to be so very kind to him and I guess I will never stop wondering." Again this is a letter from Harry Truman to Lieutenant Colonel John M. Lee.

LEE: Very, very typical of his thinking. I think it's very nice.

JOHNSON: This happens in 1962 and '63. Maybe what we should do is go back a ways, and the first question then is, when did you or your father first become

[4]

acquainted with Harry Truman?

LEE: It was really basically my father, say through his Army Reserve program. They dedicated the Armory, which was at about 16th and Central here in Kansas City, I think some time between 1955 and '57, somewhere in there. The reason I say that is because my mother died in 1956, and I don't recall her being at that dedication, but her dad was. It was at that dedication where I first met him [Mr. Truman]. It was also in subsequent activities at that Armory where I would meet him and talk, that sort of thing. At that time I was only, say, in my twenties, and so it was...

JOHNSON: It was at the dedication of the armory here, used by the National Guard and the Army Reserve?

LEE: I don't know if the National Guard used it, but I know of my dad's involvement with it there. Dad was regimental Executive Officer of the 406th Infantry Regiment, which is a part of the 102nd Infantry Division, which was a subsidiary of the 5th Army headquartered in Illinois, in Chicago. Dad was regimental Executive Officer, and Lieutenant Colonel Joseph Crawford was the Commanding Officer there. But it was at that dedication of the Armory that we first

[5]

met.

JOHNSON: Was that when your father first met him, also?

LEE: I really suspect that's when they met.

JOHNSON: Do you remember any highlights of that particular event, what Truman's involvement was?

LEE: I suspect that he was probably the guest speaker that day. I would imagine.

JOHNSON: Do you remember him making remarks?

LEE: Making remarks of some sort, yes.

JOHNSON: How about subsequent contacts?

LEE: Well, I went off to college and that sort of thing. My next involvement or personal contact, say, with Mr. Truman was the latter part, I think, of the 1950s at the Truman Library.

As we were talking on the phone last week, my paternal grandmother and grandfather wanted to go out to the Truman Library. My grandmother was a short woman; she was stocky, and she had small feet and it was difficult for her to get around. Grandad was kind of tall and lanky and what have you. They kept talking about how they wanted to go to the Library; they wanted

[6]

to go to the Library. So I said, "Why don't we do this. Let's go out on a week day; there won't be as much traffic as on a weekend, and you can walk around, grandma. You can walk around and you can sit; you can do what you want to do." She thought that was a good idea and so we went.

We were sitting there in the entrance to the Oval Office. Grandmother had taken her shoes off, I remember, and was wiggling her toes and saying, "Oh, at last." Grandad and I were just standing and talking. Grandad had his back to the Oval Office there and I was halfway out in the hall. We heard this commotion down at the other room down there at the end of the hall. Grandad and I kind of looked there; grandmother was too busy working with her feet I think. We looked there, and Mr. Truman came out. He saw me and naturally I knew who he was, but I was very much surprised when he said, or shouted, "Hi, Fred, how are you doing." And he came over to me. I have difficulty remembering names...

JOHNSON: He met you once and he remembered your name?

LEE: Well, several times, but it had been several years before. He came over and we shook hands and I said, "How are you Mr. President?" "Fine. Fine." He put

[7]

his arm on my shoulder and he said, "How's that old man of yours?" I said, "Okay, the last time I checked." He said, "Is he staying out of trouble?" I said, "Yes." So then I introduced him to my grandparents. Of course, at that point my grandmother quickly put on her shoes and she probably didn't have them all the way on, but she was standing there and so I introduced him to grandmother and grandad. I mean, quite frankly, here was a former President of the United States talking about their son, not my father, but their son. My grandmother, of course, was just beaming; she was so proud that this had happened.

We were talking, oh, a couple of minutes there, and then Mr. Truman said, "Are you going to be here for a second or two?" I said, "Sure. Sure." He said, "I've got somebody I want you to meet."

So we went back down the hallway there, and he came out a minute or so later and who should he have with him but Jack Benny. They were doing a walk-through for Benny's program. As I said, he came out and we were introduced, all of us, and we stood out there in that hall a good, I would say, 15 minutes to half an hour, talking. Just talk.

JOHNSON: With you and your grandparents and Harry Truman

[8]

and Jack Benny.

LEE: And Jack Benny. I look back on it now. I'm so happy that the good Lord happened to plan it that way, because it was a very pleasant memory for me. You know, your grandparents are always doing things for you. They spoil grandkids, and our family was no exception. Here, I had taken them out there and this happened to transpire and it made an exceptionally great day out of what would have been an exceptional day. So they had a memory. I look back on it because of that, and it brings a warmth to me. Also, the thing that strikes me, and has continually, is that here were two men, Mr. Truman and Mr. Benny, two men individually who had given of themselves to the world, literally. They had by their presence on this earth contributed of themselves and made great contributions; they could be swelled heads -- they had every right to be -- because most people in life don't achieve those heights. But there is that humanness, you know, to just stand and talk, to somebody they encountered and to do this.

I remember Benny was kidding Mr. Truman about their act that they used to do you know. Benny was saying something about "I'm going to try to teach this guy to do a soft shoe; I think that's the next thing

[9]

I'm going to get him to do." I look back on it and I cannot quite picture that. But Mr. Truman...

JOHNSON: He was kidding Mr. Truman about teaching him the soft shoe?

LEE: Right. And he said something about, I remember Mr. Truman said something like, "I don't think I'm that well coordinated," or something like that. Anyway Benny said, "We'll teach you; it doesn't take any talent."

JOHNSON: So they joked around.

LEE: Sure they were joking around and kidding. I never did see the program. I never really did. I've looked for it on video tape, to get a copy, but I've never seen it.

JOHNSON: Well, come on out, and you can see it on our monitor at the Library.

Here's a report, a quarterly report, either quarterly or monthly report, from the director of the Library, which he wrote on September 4th, 1959. He says, "Our experience in the last three days warrants a special note. Mr. Benny came Tuesday with his staff of J & M Productions, CBS representatives from both New

[10]

York and Los Angeles," and so forth. He talks about the script being prepared carefully in advance and so on. So this is the occasion that you're talking about.

LEE: Yes that would be September 8th, or the 4th.

JOHNSON: It sounds like it was right around Labor Day of 1959 that they were out here.

LEE: Around that time.

JOHNSON: Well, he said the half hour show would be produced on October 18th, so they had done this ahead of time, it looks like, about five or six weeks in advance of the show itself. I guess it must have been recorded and then played back.

LEE: Was it just a half an hour show, his regular half hour?

JOHNSON: I think it was. Okay, there's another notice here of it. There's a little column here by Paul Malloy that ends up saying, "It did show Mr. Truman as a deft straight man, or was Benny the straight man?"

LEE: Who's kidding who? I like that about Truman asking Benny his real age, standing under a portrait of George Washington.

[11]

JOHNSON: Yes, right. Did they make any jokes about that while you were talking to them about the stage thing.

LEE: No.

JOHNSON: Or being stingy? Benny's reputation for being stingy?

LEE: No, there was none of that. Of course, I think in real life he was the complete opposite.

JOHNSON: Yes, I think so. Did you meet them again after that, at any time?

LEE: No, I didn't after that. I do remember one time when some of us had gone down to see a performance of "Hello Dolly" down at the auditorium, in the Little Theater, with Mary Martin, and I think we were sitting orchestra, center orchestra, about row M or so. The lights dimmed, the orchestra started playing the overture, and we saw this group of people over to our right coming down the aisle. We paid no attention to who they were. They sat oh, maybe, four or five rows ahead of us in the center there. We got through with the performance, and of course, there was a standing ovation for Mary Martin and all that sort of thing. She stepped out there on the proscenium and she said to

[12]

her audience, "We have a very special somebody in our audience tonight." Right away, of course, you knew who that was, but you weren't quite sure. She said, "To him," and then you knew, "I would like to sing a very special song." She pointed to the orchestra and they played "Hello Dolly." But instead of singing Hello Dolly she says, "Hello Harry," and "it's so nice to have you back where you belong. You're looking swell, Harry. I can tell...," and she was singing it right directly to him.

Now, the beauty of all this, Niel, is that when she said, "I'd like to sing this to him," I think the audience stood out of respect. There was no gawking, no saying, "Where is he, where is he; where are they, where are they?" you know. They stood out of respect. They applauded when she got through, and then sat down. Then she said, "Mr. Truman has a birthday coming up next week, and I think it would be nice if we would be the first to sing 'Happy Birthday' to him." So, we all stood and sang, "Happy Birthday, Mr. President," or to Mr. Truman, and some said, "Harry." Then again, the applause. Everybody sat down, and the lights came on.

I don't know how it was way behind us, but everybody sat while the Truman party got up and left. Well, as we were facing the stage, they went out to the

[13]

left there, and I think there were a couple of Secret Service men there. As I recall, Mr. Truman was in a walker, and they were practically lifting him out. Mrs. Truman was there, and I think Rufus Burrus was there; I'm not sure. I don't know if his wife was with him or not. But as the Truman party made their way up to the side of the stage and were going to her dressing room there, the audience made sure that while they were going that way that they were all taken care of, then the audience left -- which I thought was a very nice sign of respect. It showed a love, really for both of them.

JOHNSON: What theater was that, do you recall?

LEE: That was the Little Theater down there in the Auditorium, in the Kansas City Auditorium downtown.

JOHNSON: He was quite a theater-goer when he was young, too.

LEE: Oh, yes. I remember being out at Starlight Theater one time, and he was out there with Mrs. Truman.

JOHNSON: Was that when he took ill? I think they had to leave early because he took ill, at the Starlight.

LEE: That might have been. But you know, the thing that

[14]

really struck me -- I guess I am a flag-waver and a tear comes to my eyes when they sing "God Bless America" you know -- I'm a sentimental whatever when they do that. But the fact that we have the privilege of living in a country that we do, that you can go to a performance of "Hello Dolly" and you can go wherever you want and literally you have a former President of the United States just sitting in your midst. He's not sitting up there in a box with bodyguards, with a bullet-proof shield around him, and he's not changing guards every five minutes; it's fact that he's there. He's the down home type. I'm sure you've read his book Mr. Citizen about the adjustment that he was making going from President to private citizen; you know you never make that change, you can't go home again.

JOHNSON: Not quite.

LEE: You know how people would look at him when he would drive his car; of course they would look out. I've heard stories that apparently he was not the best driver in the world. He'd park his car and he'd put a nickel into the meter. Well, I mean the President of the United States doing this, you know. This is like going out and cutting your own yard. You just don't do these things, you know.

[15]

JOHNSON: Not any more you don't.

How about your father? Do you know if he had any contacts with Harry Truman? Well, we mentioned this letter, this exchange of letters in 1962-63. Is this the only other event that you can think of in which your father might have been involved?

LEE: No, there were several others. Dad was president of the Kansas City chapter of the Reserve Officers Association.

JOHNSON: Do you remember what years?

LEE: This would have been in the '50s I'm sure.

JOHNSON: This was the one that Harry Truman had started?

LEE: Yes, that he [Truman] had started, and he was first president of it. Of course, when he was in the White House, ROA chapters were spread all over the country. There was a group here that was formed out of the past presidents of the Kansas City chapter of the ROA and they would get together from time to time. They would usually schedule their get-togethers when it was convenient for Mr. Truman to meet with them. They would have a dinner. I think the first one was in Kansas City, and then the subsequent ones were in

[16]

Independence. As I say, they'd get together, and as dad said, they would "swap war stories."

JOHNSON: Your father was in World War II?

LEE: He was in World War II.

JOHNSON: What was his rank and what outfit was he with?

LEE: He was a major, and frankly, I couldn't give you the number of the outfit, but early in the war he was stationed down at Fort Benning, Georgia, and was writing the field manuals for what to do in jungle warfare and desert warfare. Typical of the Army, he had never in his life seen a desert. And the jungle he had seen was the Florida Everglades, but you know, that's the Army. As I understand it, he wrote the first manuals for that. He was state-side for most of the war, but when V-J Day was declared, he was on the high seas. He was going over to the Philippines, and then he went to Yokohama and Tokyo, and they were part of the occupation forces there. They were also in Army intelligence over there, in S-3 work, that sort of thing.

JOHNSON: That's where he rose to major, when he was in Japan?

[17]

LEE: I don't know if he rose to major there or if he was that when he was on the way over. In his job they'd go into caves and they'd claim these great big caches of [counterfeit money] -- the Japanese had printed up American money which they were going to flood onto the American market. You know that could do things to the economy.

JOHNSON: They found those in caves, in Japan?

LEE: Yes, in caves.

JOHNSON: Counterfeit American money.

LEE: Yes. And they found Japanese treasures, some of their heritage, whatever things that had been secreted to the caves for protection in case something happened. I know he was talking one time about one of the things at the tail-end of the war. One of the demoralizing things [to the Japanese] was that the Army Intelligence had gotten word that the Japanese were going to build this big battleship, or something, and everything they had went into this battleship, to build it, and it was in the harbor there in Tokyo. Everybody in the country had sacrificed for this thing that was going to win them the war. I guess [American] frogmen crept through

[18]

and they put mines or whatever on the boat, or wherever, when they were having this big launching in front of the whole Japanese nation, and the thing goes "kaplooey" into the bay, of course. Of course, when that happened, Japanese morale just went ooooops.

JOHNSON: Your father was in Intelligence.

LEE: He was in Army Intelligence, and when he came back he was very active in the Reserve Officer's Program along with this Joe Crawford and others.

JOHNSON: Was he president for a couple of years?

LEE: I would say a couple years. He was one of the past-presidents.

JOHNSON: Do you think Truman generally would be able to meet with them?

LEE: They always scheduled it that way because, of course, he was primary and, you know, they wanted to do this. I know at one of those sessions, Dad told me about how and Truman told them about the most difficult decisions that he had to make. I'm sure you've heard this story. The most difficult decisions that he had to make when he was in the Presidency were the dropping of the bomb on Hiroshima, the firing of MacArthur, and Korea.

[19]

JOHNSON: Those three he stressed?

LEE: Those three; he really stressed those three. The dropping of the bomb on Hiroshima -- what a moral dilemma to be in, to have to decide, because here on the one hand he was killing innocent people, and yet on the other hand it was his job as President to make sure that our casualties in war were as low as could be, and he wanted to bring an end to the war. By dropping the bomb, that would end the hostilities and we could go on to better things.

JOHNSON: You know, the picture of Truman is generally that it didn't bother him that much, that he said, in effect, "This is another weapon to use to shorten the war," and that it didn't bother him all that much. But your feeling is that it did bother him.

LEE: I think it did, because I think deep down inside he was a man of great humanitarian capacity. Well, too, I think he was in awe of the office of the President. He had great respect for it. That's a tremendous position to be in. I know when we were out at the Truman Library recently and watching your display of Truman's "First Six Months," that really brought it home to me. My heaven, how would we react, to be put into that

[20]

position, and then forced to make those decisions. Just like in the book, This Man Truman, where it says about it's like going down a dark corridor with two dark rooms on each side, and he doesn't know what's down at the far end, and he's the only guy that's doing it. That's a terrific decision.

JOHNSON: Does your father mention any other things about Truman that you can recall?

LEE: Well, he did mention in that instance, too, about the firing of MacArthur. He had trepidation apparently about that because I think he had respect for MacArthur, for what he had done during the war and that sort of thing, but he said he had violated that sanctum of respect for his superiors.

JOHNSON: Civilian control of the military too?

LEE: Yes.

JOHNSON: As far as your father's recollections are concerned, did he ever comment about how important it was to have civilian control of the military? And did he ever talk about UMT, Universal Military Training, or the citizen soldier idea?

LEE: No. I don't remember dad ever talking about that. I

[21]

just remember on this thing with MacArthur that he said it was a tough decision and he said that he [Truman] sent for MacArthur's 201 file. He read through it, and apparently MacArthur was continually, throughout his military career, bucking the system. And Truman said, "That just can't go." I think he even asked Omar Bradley. He said, "What do you think I should do here?" So eventually he came, of course, to the decision where he fired him.

Mr. Truman said that he knew that when MacArthur came home he would be accorded great accolades because of what he had done, and rightfully so. He deserved that. He deserved it for what he had done.

JOHNSON: How about your father's attitude? Or, let's say, in the ROA was there any dissension from Truman's view that MacArthur had to be fired?

LEE: I don't think so. I think dad felt that way about it, certainly after hearing who he was hearing it from. See, dad didn't have access to the guy's 201 file.

JOHNSON: Of course, they had the hearings afterward, too, which brought out some of the problems with MacArthur.

LEE: There was another one. I remember in one of those sessions that Mr. Truman talked about, I think he said

[22]

something about he was the only President, to the best of his knowledge, that when he was in the White House promoted himself and discharged himself from the service. Of course, promoting himself gave him a pay raise. If I remember correctly, dad says that Truman said that he was so busy doing stuff, and "all of a sudden I was going through these papers on my desk, the things I had to sign and do, and there's my discharge papers in there." He said, "Boy, what an opportunity."

JOHNSON: Signing his discharge papers.

LEE: Now, I was doing some checking last night to see if that story could be a apocryphal or not. In the book the Senate put out, of tributes to Truman, it says that he was promoted to Colonel, Honorary, U.S. Army Reserve, September 29, 1952 and placed on the Army of the United States retired list, January 31, 1953.* Of course, on January 20, he's out. And so that all ties right in. He got a big kick out of that, that he was doing that.

Well, let's backtrack. On this ROA thing, when the past presidents were out there in Independence, and

*"Memorial Services in the Congress of the United States and Tributes in Eulogy of Harry S. Truman, late a President of the United States," (93rd Congress, 1st Session, House Doc. No. 93‑131) (GPO: 1973), xi.

[23]

they were having their dinner and whatever, there was a lull in the conversation, Dad said, this one particular evening. This is right after the Truman Library had opened. Mr. Truman reached into his pocket, and he said, "Any of you guys been out to the Library yet?" He said, "I've got a key; we can get in any time we want. How would you guys like to go over there?" Well, of course, "Darn right." So they went over there to the Library and he gave them a tour of the Library.

JOHNSON: Was this right after it was finished, in 1957?

LEE: This probably would be right after it was finished, because it was dedicated on...

JOHNSON: July 6, 1957.

LEE: Yes. So he took them over there and took them through. One of the stories that he told them related to the scabbard that used to be in the display case which was in the front there, a beautiful scabbard.

JOHNSON: Yes. It was from the Shah [of Iran] or King Ibn Saud of Saudi Arabia.

LEE: When you and I were talking you said that when those things came into the White House that they were the President's. Is that right?

[24]

JOHNSON: Yes. In those days, especially, almost anything he received was considered his personal property if he wanted to keep it. And then later on, regulations were set down about what could be kept and what couldn't.

LEE: I'm wondering in my dad's telling of this story, from what Mr. Truman had said, maybe those were just pretty expensive things, and maybe he just didn't quite feel he had a right to them; maybe that he should compensate [the Government] or something.

At any rate, when they were looking at the scabbard, well, Mr. Truman told the story about how of all of the things had come in, and there were oohs and aahs, of course, by Mrs. Truman, but she was never a person for fancy; and she was very basic. That's one reason I like Barbara Bush, I think, because she's got those fake pearls around her neck and she's the grandmotherly type, and you can't help but love her, you know. The grandmother goes out sledding with her kids and breaks her ankle. But at any rate, this thing came in and apparently Mrs. Truman saw that emerald in there and she fell in love with it, and she wanted to have a brooch, you know, a pendant, a chain, with that thing attached.

Mr. Truman said, "I can't afford it on my salary."

[25]

But then he said something about, "We'll sell some property," I guess out at Grandview or something. He said, "I will buy it for you and have that done, on one condition." And what was that condition? He apparently was always having trouble with Drew Pearson and the press there, whatever. So, he said to Mrs. Truman, "Now, the next time there's a press party in the White House, and we're standing in the reception line, and you're just being so pretty and so vivacious and friendly, when he comes up -- and of course, they'll be taking pictures of all of this -- I will talk to him, and I will sort of divert his attention. But as he is passing by you to me, I want you to reach your foot out and I want you to trip that sonofabitch, and he will fall flat on his face. Now, what you do is just look so surprised, and I will look surprised and will reach down to try to help this poor old man. The cameras will be going off clicking, clicking, clicking, and the next morning, his picture, this man who has fallen flat on his face in the White House, will appear in the papers all over the world." And he said, "I will then buy it for you if you will do that for me." So the emerald stayed, and I think he said something about, "You see what happened to the emerald."

[26]

JOHNSON: Still there on the scabbard.

LEE: Still there.

JOHNSON: This is the story Truman told on that tour?

LEE: Yes, when they were on that first tour. My dad said something to him; he said, "I can understand why you were President," something to that effect, because that is a very diplomatic thing to do.

JOHNSON: There was not much love lost between them, those two [Truman and Drew Pearson].

LEE: After that first group, with just a few going through, then it started to grow. I know there were pictures taken of those and they should be, of course, in the records there at the Library. I have one of them that was taken in the office there.

JOHNSON: Is your father in the photograph?

LEE: Dad is in the photograph.

JOHNSON: In the working office.

LEE: Yes. I think I've got it around somewhere. That might have been a year or so later, when they were there. I know of the other stories that dad said

[27]

that he told them was about this redesigning the Presidential flag.

JOHNSON: He had the four stars increased to 48 originally, one for each state. The Presidential flag had four stars on it when he came in, and he raised that to 48.

LEE: Well, he told the story that one day he was visiting with George Patton.

JOHNSON: Truman was visiting with General George Patton?

LEE: Truman was. He was with George Patton for some reason or other, and he said [to the group], "I am President of the United States, I am his boss." I'm paraphrasing Truman here -- "He had five stars on his helmet, and five stars on each of his shoulders. He had stars on his holsters he had stars on his pistols." He said. "I wouldn't be surprised if he had stars on his underwear probably," and knowing Truman, I think he'd probably think that way. And he said, "I looked at his jeep and he had stars there." He said, "I counted them up, and I'm the President of the United States and I don't have that many stars."

So, apparently the Presidential flag evolved from that.

JOHNSON: Yes. I think that the story is that. He saw the

[28]

stars on all of the generals at Potsdam, the Potsdam Conference, and of course, he did meet Patton there. There was that flag-raising picture with Truman at Berlin.

LEE: Well, maybe that was the occasion.

JOHNSON: And some other important people. I think Patton came to the White House, as well.

Are there any other anecdotes that you can think of that perhaps come from your father, if not from you?

LEE: Oh, about the ROA dinner I was telling you about. They had an ROA dinner; it was at the Armory I'm pretty sure, and dad was president or whatever of this thing. Dad said he was sitting there -- they were at a U shaped table and they were at the bottom part of the U, in the center. He was there and Mr. Truman was to his left dad said there was more brass there than you could shake a stick at. He said there were generals, generals, generals; then as you went around the bend, colonels, lieutenant colonels, lieutenant colonels, majors, you know. They were all along down to the tail end or whatever [where there were] lieutenants, lieutenants you know.

I suppose Mr. Truman, being in the position that

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he was, he'd go to something like that and then he couldn't take a bite of food without somebody looking, you know, and all of that staff. They were sitting there, and at any rate, the porter or the maitre'd or whatever, one of the young waiters, came over to dad and dad said he had a little silver tray there. He said this was rally a posh affair. He had this little silver tray there and all of them had placards by their places. The young man leaned over to my father and said, "Colonel Lee, Lieutenant So-and-So down there would like to have Mr. Truman sign his placard for him. Could you have that done for him?" Dad just took it and put it on the table and said, "Thank you."

They were eating and Truman said, "What was that about?" Dad was eating and Truman was eating and they were trying to be very dignified. And Dad said, "Lieutenant So-and-So down at the end of the table wants to have you sign his place card for him." Of course, they were in a very animated conversation, and dad said it was like you were witting there and you were talking, as you were looking straight ahead, but you were sort of, you know, to the front. So Truman says, "All right." He said, "Just quietly slip it under my napkin." And he said, "You know, the trouble if they see us doing this -- people who come up and

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ask for autographs at things like this are a little bit like puppy dogs around a fire hydrant. If one does it, they all want to do it." Dad says, "I smiled," and said "That's right." So dad, at that point, he just reached for his place card and slid it under the napkin to Truman, and he said, "Would you sign mine too?" Mr. Truman said, "All right."

So they kept that under the napkin there. I mean this is strategy, you know, you plan these things. So he had these under there and they had a few papers. After the dessert or somewhere in that point in time, they were talking, they were shuffling papers, and agreeing what was going to go next with the program or that sort of thing. So they had these papers, and there were some other papers there, and he took them and just put them into his pocket, and said to dad, "I'll mail it to you," or something to that effect. Dad said, "That will be fine." And as I understand it, that's what happened.

JOHNSON: And your father still has that?

LEE: I think he still has it there somewhere, but I liked this statement of his about the little puppy dogs.

JOHNSON: Yes, I've read that one before.

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LEE: Which was probably one he used several times.

JOHNSON: What is the hall that you're referring to here?

LEE: That's the Reserve Officers Hall.

JOHNSON: Where is that located?

LEE: It's in Washington, D.C.

JOHNSON: Oh, that's the hall referred to in the letter that Truman wrote to your father in November 1963.

LEE: Yes. Dad was involved in getting that going, and was, I would say, a participant.

JOHNSON: Well, is there anything else? Or have we just about run out of stories here.

LEE: I was trying to think here. I have made a few notes.

JOHNSON: Do you have anything that we might add as an appendix?

LEE: One thing, several years ago I was hired by a firm here in town called Shook, Hardy and Bacon. It's a law firm in Kansas City. I was hired to research and write the history of their firm for them. And Shook, Hardy, Bacon, to be honest with you, I hadn't heard of them

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before, but they are the largest law firm in Kansas City. They have ten floors in One Kansas City Place over there, and say, 150 some-odd lawyers on their staff. It's the second largest law firm in the state of Missouri, and so forth and so on. They were celebrating their 100th year in Kansas City and they wanted to have their history researched and written. So, I was the one that was hired to do the job for them. I thoroughly enjoyed it, you know, with history; I was doing something I thoroughly loved doing, and I was getting paid for it.

But one of the things about Shook, Hardy and Bacon, in the 1930s they moved into the Federal Reserve Bank Building in Kansas City. They moved in in March of 1937 and they have had several name changes and so forth over the years. They were in an area that they called R 1516; it's in a 21-story building. When it was dedicated in 1921 it was the tallest building in Kansas City. It was also air-conditioned, which no other building in Kansas City was at that time. They were in R 1515-1516; that's the way it was designated. Take the elevator up and turn to your left and there was a suite of rooms. When Mr. Truman, as you know, came back from the White House, he had his office there in the Federal Reserve.

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JOHNSON: Right.

LEE: He was in room 1107 to 1109, which had actually been a storage room which they had converted into an office for him. They built bookcases in there for him and his books. You know, he had to have his books around him. When I was doing this history, I was talking to people who had worked with the firm at that time. I was interviewing a woman by the name of Myrtle Bryant and she was secretary to one of the lawyers there, David Hardy. She was telling about how they had a special elevator there for Mr. Truman that he was to get in and ride up to his floor and get off at his office. The Secret Service men could get in there with him, but Mr. Truman didn't like that [arrangement] and she said many a time we would be there waiting for the elevator and we'd just be talking and, say, the elevator would come along, and a few people, we'd all get into the elevator, and sometimes some of the Secret Service men had to catch the next elevator up. It used to frustrate them to no end. Fortunately we were thinking in other terms in those days from what we do now.

JOHNSON: Yes, that's right. You just couldn't be doing that.

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LEE: Yes, he wouldn't be doing that. She was telling that story and she said, "I look back on it, and I remember that." She said, "It just struck me that here he didn't want any of this special high-falutin' whoop-de-doo for him."

Well, in his book, Mr. Citizen Truman talks about what his office routine was. He would go in; then he would have lunch, eat at the Kansas City Club or the Muehlebach, and he'd go back to his office and catch up on his phone calls, letters. Then he'd get the second mail. About 3 o'clock he'd go back, be driven back, to Independence.

Later, after he left that office, the firm of Sebree, Shook, Hardy and Ottman leased his office, 1107-09, from October 15 to December 31, 1952. Then again they did it for 18 days from October 14-31, 1957. That's not very long, two weeks there. But the other was a two-month period. As I say, when doing the research for them, I came across that information. I went over to the Federal Reserve and talked to the people over there, and that was just great. They made bunches of stuff for me, floor plans, everything else. But I saw the documents, you know, the leases that were signed, and everything. They have some Truman

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material, of course, over there.

JOHNSON: At the [Federal Reserve] Branch?

LEE: At the Federal Reserve.

JOHNSON: Thank you for your time and the information.

[Top of the Page | Notices and Restrictions | Interview Transcript | List of Subjects Discussed]

List of Subjects Discussed

Army Reserve, 3, 4

Benny, Jack, 7-10
Bradley, Omar, 21

Crawford, Joseph, 4

Japan, 16-17

Lee, John M,. 2, 15, 16, 17, 18