NOTICE
This is a transcript of a tape-recorded interview conducted for the Harry S. Truman Library. A draft of this transcript was edited by the interviewee but only minor emendations were made; therefore, the reader should remember that this is essentially a transcript of the spoken, rather than the written word.

As an electronic publication of the Truman Library, users should note that features of the original, hardcopy version of the oral history interview, such as pagination and indexing, could not be replicated for this online version of the Robert K. Walsh transcript.

RESTRICTIONS
This oral history transcript may be read, quoted from, cited, and reproduced for purposes of research. It may not be published in full except by permission of the Harry S. Truman Library.

Opened January, 1972
Harry S. Truman Library
Independence, Missouri

[1]

HESS: All right, Mr. Walsh, to begin, would you give me a little of your personal background: Where were you born, where were you educated, and tell me a little bit about your early newspaper career.

WALSH: I was born in McAlester, Oklahoma, November 1, 1903. My parents, mother and father, were both natives of St. Louis; in fact, all my relatives are from St. Louis, and that has been more or less our family home. I went to public schools in McAlester. Then I went to St. Louis University and graduated there in 1924, got an A.B. degree and went immediately into the newspaper business, in the old St. Louis Star.

HESS: What year was that?

WALSH: That was 1924. I was on the Star just a few months--the Star is no longer in existence. I went up to Springfield, Illinois for about a year on the Illinois

[2]

State Journal, the morning paper there, worked there, and then I came back to St. Louis on the Globe Democrat. This covered a period of almost three years, about a year in each place. Then I had an opportunity to go to New York City. It was not even newspaper business, it was a publicity business, a religious organization, The Society for the Propagation of Faith, the national headquarters, a Catholic organization. They put out a magazine and various publicity publications, and I was the editor.

Then after about two or two and a half years at that, I wanted to get back into the newspaper business, not that I disagreed with it, but I wanted to get back into the newspaper business because I liked that better than publicity. So this was in 1928. That was my first experience in the East, first time I'd ever been East when I left Missouri in 1926. I didn't know any newspapers. I applied to several New York papers, but I really didn't have too much experience when you got down to it, and they kept putting me off: "Come back in six months and we might have something," the New York Times and some of the others. The upshot was that I applied to several papers in New England and in New York State and I had an offer right away from the Providence

[3]

Journal, Providence, Rhode Island. I went up and I got the job there. And it was surprising in those days, this was in '28, just before the depression, and within a week or two after I went to work for the Journal, I had an offer for an interview from a Hartford paper and a Boston paper. Jobs weren't plentiful, but they did need people right after the 1928 election.

So I went up to Providence, having never been in New England in my life, and I thought, "Well, I'll stay there for maybe six months or a year, and then get back to New York, or maybe even go back to St. Louis." I always liked St. Louis. The ambition in those days in St. Louis was to get on the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, you know, because it was a great crusading paper, it's a great newspaper. The Globe Democrat is a good paper.

Well, the upshot of the New England thing was that I stayed there for seventeen years. I worked on the Journal for seventeen years. I had met my wife there and had married her there. In February 1944 I was sent down here to Washington. They have an afternoon paper, the Journal is the morning paper and the Evening Bulletin is the afternoon paper published by

[4]

the same company in Providence. There was another man named Fred Collins, we were in the bureau down here. I came here in February of '44, and was with the Journal until April 1946. There again, it wasn't that I didn't want to go back to Providence, but I had an opportunity, just by a stroke of luck, to get a job on the Washington Star. They had a vacancy at that time. I went on the Star in April of 1946, and I retired from the Star just about the beginning of 1969. They have an automatic retirement age at 65, although I still do continue with the Star I've been much busier than I thought I would be, in reviewing books and Sunday articles, I've got two or three right here. So that is my newspaper experience in a nutshell.

My experience here in Washington included the Providence Journal. The Journal is a different operation, of course. You cover Rhode Island, it's a New England story paper, but I used to go over to the White House for the Journal very regularly, almost every day when Eben Ayers was there, or before that, when Steve Early, the President's Press Secretary would have a briefing every morning, as they still do, or every afternoon, and I made a point to be over there every day.

HESS: Did you attend any of Roosevelt's press conferences during that time?

[5]

WALSH: Yes, he had a few, yes. The day I met Roosevelt, there was a press conference. I came down in February and I think--that was in the middle of the week, Tuesday or Wednesday I remember--and he had one on Thursday or Friday. Well, within two days I went over to the press conference. I happened to be accredited.

In those days, they had a ceremony for new men who came in for the first time. The Press Secretary, after it was over, would take them up and introduce them to the President. Of course, Roosevelt was sitting down behind the desk.

HESS: In the Oval Room.

WALSH: In the Oval Room, in the White House west extension where the President's office is. Roosevelt shook hands very cordially, all the charm, he really had it, there's no question about it. I had been forewarned he always pretty well knew who was coming, and he knew something about the geographical or political or personal situation in every state in the country.

So he said to me, "Well, Mr. Walsh, welcome to Washington? How is Quonset Point coming along?"

They were building the big naval base up there at Quonset Point, I think it was pretty well completed

[6]

at that time. He knew just all about Rhode Island. So that's when I first met Roosevelt.

Then, I think the next time I saw him was not too long after, it must have been early in March, they had the White House Correspondents Association, they used to--still do--have an annual dinner, and the President was there.

Let me see how many others: That was in '44 and I don't know that he had many press conferences during the election campaign of '44. He must have. I looked through my scrapbook and I can't find any record of having written a story, but that doesn't mean that I wasn't there. He may have had some. I do recall that I went to two or three at least, before the election in '44. I did see him several times before he died. I saw him at the inauguration on the back portico of the White House.

HESS: And you drove to Chicago in 1944 for the convention?

WALSH: Yes.

HESS: What do you recall about that?

WALSH: Well, I recall quite a bit about it. I was working for the Providence Journal, and our main concern was to watch the Rhode Island delegation. They were for Truman for Vice President, so that was my chief concern

[7]

there, although I did not even see Truman there except when he accepted the nomination in a speech at the final session.

HESS: What do you recall of the attempt to keep Henry Wallace from getting the vice-presidential nomination?

WALSH: I recall it rather round about. I was looking through my clippings here, and found a story I wrote pretty much on the basis of an interview or talk with Robert Hannegan, Bob Hannegan, whom I knew in St. Louis. He was a graduate of St. Louis University. When I was a student out there he was a football player. He was a very good football player. When I came here I went down to see him. He had become Democratic National Chairman, as I recall, that year, wasn't it '44?

HESS: When he got the post, I'm not sure, but he was chairman during the very important events of the 1944 election.

WALSH: And another man I knew, now these of course, I'm dropping names, because I actually knew them, I knew Bob Hannegan personally, and I knew J. Howard McGrath, who was from Rhode Island. He had been Governor of Rhode Island. My wife knew him since childhood, and I knew him for about twenty-five years, twenty years before I came here, fifteen years. So on the basis of

[8]

talks I had with Hannegan and McGrath in about May 1944--I'd been there only about three or four months then--I remember writing a story for the Providence Journal that they were pushing Harry Truman for Vice President. They told me that there was a move to dump Wallace, that's what it amounted to. They weren't so much involved in that--well, they were--were involved, of course, but their idea was that if Wallace was dropped, they were going to get Truman in. They were going to do their darndest to get him in.

HESS: What seemed to be the tenor of their thoughts, was if for Mr. Truman, or was it more anti-Wallace?

WALSH: Well, in Hannegan's case, it was certainly for Truman, because he was from Missouri and he knew him, of course. Now Truman was--this story will refresh my memory too--Truman had made a speech at the Democratic State Convention in Missouri in April or May of 1944, and it made quite an impression. The Vice Presidency wasn't mentioned, Truman himself didn't say anything about it, but Hannegan said, "That's one of the best speeches he's ever made, locally, in Missouri, and it increased his stature quite a bit." But even at that time, I remember distinctly that there were rumors around of reports that Truman was being mentioned.

[9]

You were always getting lists of possible nominees--you know, the move to drop Wallace was over a long period of time, quite a period of time. I don't know the inside of it all--I don't know whether Roosevelt intended to or wanted to, but I rather suspect that he did. Of course, as things came out, he was supposed to have offered it to [James] Byrnes, wasn't it? Not offered it, but Byrnes was turned down, wasn't it Byrnes?

HESS: Byrnes had the impression in a talk with Roosevelt that he had Roosevelt's support. That was his impression.

WALSH: A lot of people get impressions like that when they talk to a President.

HESS: And then also William 0. Douglas, Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas was mentioned.

There was a very famous Truman-Douglas letter that was given to Robert Hannegan, and he had that with him when Mr. Roosevelt went through town on his way to the West Coast on board the train. Did Mr. Hannegan ever tell you anything about the Truman-Douglas letter?

WALSH: No, but I heard that, well, it was later, by hindsight, later. He went aboard the Roosevelt

[10]

train in the railroad yards in Chicago, but I had no personal knowledge of that, wasn't in on it anyway, and Bob Hannegan never mentioned it later even. As a matter of fact, I don't think I ever asked him. Roosevelt had been elected again and I suppose nobody followed it up until Truman became President, but I certainly never did ask him.

After a while, I didn't see Hannegan too much. Of course, he became Postmaster General, he was national chairman and then he became Postmaster General, and I was down at his swearing in. Then he died. He served several years, though, at that.

HESS: He did.

WALSH: I saw him--I go to St. Matthew's Cathedral here and he used to come there, and I'd just say hello to him, but I don't think I was ever in his office more than once or twice after he became...

HESS: He was replaced by Jesse M. Donaldson, but he was Postmaster General for quite some time.

WALSH: Yes he was. He was there for several years.

HESS: One question we should cover before we move on since you were in the newspaper field in Missouri quite early, did you recall anything about Mr. Truman at the time that you were in Missouri?

[11]

WALSH: No, no. You must remember in the Missouri days I was pretty much of a cub reporter, but even there I was always interested in politics.

HESS: You were in St. Louis at the time?

WALSH: Yes, from '24 to almost the end of '26, in newspaper work for two and a half years, and I never remember Truman being mentioned. Of course, I heard of the Pendergast organization.

HESS: What did you hear?

WALSH: Well, it naturally wasn't very good.

HESS: What was your impression in St. Louis of what was going on in Kansas City, of the political climate of Kansas City?

WALSH: Pretty bad, pretty bad. There again, it's not a personal prejudice. It was probably a local prejudice. There was always that rivalry between St. Louis and Kansas City, and I had been to Kansas City only a few times, I've been there many times since, but I didn't know too much.

I had no particular interest in Kansas City. I thought it was just another city. There was a machine there, and it was rather unsavory, the stuff we heard about it, but I had no direct connection with it, no knowledge of it.

[12]

As a matter of fact, I had more of an interest of what was going on in Chicago as a result of the year I spent in Springfield. That was one of the most interesting years of all. It increased my appreciation of Lincoln, and also decreased my appreciation of the Chicago crowd, the state organization. And of course, it wasn't Democrats or Republicans, they were equally--but to get back to Truman, I never heard of him...

HESS: When did you first hear of Mr. Truman?

WALSH: Well, I first heard of him, I think in Providence, I'm sure, the Truman Committee in the U.S. Senate. I was on the Providence Journal, and I covered the statehouse. Practically all my reporting has been covering legislation, except for the U.S. Supreme Court for ten years here. I covered the courts here, too. But for four years in Providence, the last four years before I came here, I was on the editorial staff. They took me out of the statehouse and put me on the editorial staff, mostly writing political editorials, mostly about New England and Rhode Island, but also national sometimes. So, I began to hear about Truman, and with my background in Missouri, naturally, I would sort of

[13]

follow him, although I didn't remember that I had heard of him previously. And I used to follow that committee's investigations and by the time I got down here it was still going, but I don't recall whether he was even chairman of it then. He was succeeded by somebody in 1944, before he became Vice President.

HESS: He resigned as chairman in August, the month after the convention. He received the vice-presidential nomination and then resigned as chairman in August of 1944.

WALSH: Yes, I used to cover some of the committee's work later when Senator [James] Mead was the chairman, and then when Senator Homer Ferguson was chairman, as I remember.

But to get back to Truman. The first time I met Truman, having heard of him just through reading about him, was in early 1944 when I first came down here. The first time I went up to the Capitol, I guess I dropped into his office and just introduced myself to his secretary. They didn't call them Press Secretaries in those days, they had a fellow who handled press liaison, and I can't remember who it was.

Vaughan was there with him, I think, and one or

[14]

two others, but I just don't even remember. He introduced me to Truman. Truman happened to be there, and it was just one of those brief friendly chats.

During the convention, of course, I didn't even see Truman, except at the end. I didn't have much to do with covering the machinations of the Vice Presidency nomination, although I was personally, naturally, kind of glad, you know, from what I knew about Truman. I didn't know whether he was experienced, but I thought as a result of his record he'd be as good as some of the others. Now, there I guess I gave a gratuitous appraisal.

I didn't think too much of Wallace, although I liked him personally. He was a very nice man, very kindly, and very generous and I think personally you couldn't dislike him--I couldn't dislike him. Of course, he was emotional and all that, but as Vice President I think it was fortunate that he didn't succeed Roosevelt.

HESS: What did you see in his character that makes you feel that it was best that he did not become President?

WALSH: Well, maybe the very thing I'm saying. He was maybe too emotional, too--I don't like to say erratic--he wasn't that. I talked to him several times, interviewed him on other things. I hate to use these cliches, visionary and vague, if you know what I mean, that type. Then, well,

[15]

the thing that really soured me on him, and not him personally, was later, I guess, in the '52 campaign, when the Progressive Party...

HESS: '48.

WALSH: Was that '48 , sure it was.

HESS: The big year.

WALSH: Oh, of course. I was thinking it was--but that's when he ran. Well, I covered some of their meetings here, and it was the wildest. I didn't see a Communist under every bed, but the way, way out leftwing was pretty much organized. You could see those people organizing, and handling the publicity, but many other very idealistic and liberal persons also were in on it.

Now, Wallace, I think, was being used by those far left people. I'll give him credit, as far as I know, and I don't think that he shared a lot of those wild radical reactions in that sense, way out. He was a liberal and I think he was well meaning. Truman--as things turned out--and this is hindsight again--as things came along, he did as well as probably anybody could have done under the circumstances. Now, if Wallace had succeeded Roosevelt, I don't know how it would have gone. I would have been full of trepidation much more than I was when Truman--I wasn't particularly worried when

[16]

Truman became President. I thought, "Well, it is an awful thing to follow Roosevelt, any man," with Truman's lack of experience Roosevelt never--that was an open secret- Roosevelt never confided in Truman as Vice President or even before that. I don't think there was any animosity, but Roosevelt was just running the show himself, even in those last years.

I remember, and this is backtracking a little bit, but even that first press conference of Roosevelt's that I went to, the first time I met him in February, 1944. I'm no physician, of course, but he didn't look like a dying man. I had seen Roosevelt on several of those campaign trips beginning in '32, I was at the '32 convention, and saw him several times from 1933 on. Roosevelt, you know, in spite of his disability, got around very well. But this time when I first saw him in '44, his hands were shaking and he had a gaunt look and bags and lines under his eyes. He really looked bad. But I didn't realize he was ill. Then there was the inauguration in '45, on the White House back portico. It was a gloomy day, it was raining, it sounded like a good thing and the Roosevelt people wanted to save the money, the war, of course, was going

[17]

on, and they had the inauguration on the back portico.

HESS: He came out on the back porch, did he not, and the crowd was out on the south lawn.

WALSH: Well, yes, of course there was no doubt to me then. He came out on the back porch.

HESS: Was there snow on the ground?

WALSH: Yes, I think it had snowed even the night before. They had cleared it off, but it was very muddy. I don't think it was raining at that time, but the skies were overcast, and thousands of people were down on the ellipse. There was a big crowd there, not like the inauguration up at the Capitol, but there was a big crowd. My wife was there with everybody else. The press, and Government officials were right under in front of the portico. He was up there, and we were right down below. I remember standing near McGrath at the time, and I think Hannegan too. We were all down there, but I do remember standing right next to McGrath. Roosevelt came out and read a very short inaugural speech.

But the pitiful thing was, he came out and he looked bad and Jimmy Roosevelt, and I guess one of the Secret Service men, or one of the ushers, had to lift him up. He occasionally was helped up

[18]

at banquets and meetings. They'd sort of help him up, but this time they really had to lift him up. He was holding on the rail, as I remember, and I said to myself, being no doctor, "Roosevelt is not going to live out his four years." But I had no idea that he would be dead--nobody did, of course--that he'd be dead the next April. But he looked bad. Of course, relaxed in a chair, at a press conference, he certainly didn't look like he was dying. He looked like he was in bad health. He had just come back from Yalta--wasn't that the Yalta Conference?

HESS: He was just getting ready to go.

WALSH: Yes, you're right, he was just getting ready to go, that's right. Because I remember, that's another thing, when he came back from Yalta, that was his last conference, and he came up to Congress

HESS: And addressed a Joint Session.

WALSH: Yes, I was there, in the Gallery. Usually when he addressed the Joint Session, as all Presidents do, he wouldn't try to go up those steps at the rostrum. They would have a little lectern, and he would stand up. I saw him once before at a Joint Session, I don't remember what it was, but he stood up, and then almost

[19]

every picture of course that I saw, he was always standing.

This time he came in, and his first words were, "I know that my friends in the Congress will forgive me if I sit down." So he sat down at the table, and he didn't look too bad. I suppose he was made up. But his hands were shaking and he had that sort of a gaunt look about him. The general public would never get that idea, and I'm sure over television, I didn't see that on TV at that time, but I'm sure on television he probably would have made a pretty good appearance. On the way out, of course, we could see him going out, wheeled out. As at the inauguration, I thought, "He will never last four years." And I think a lot of people thought that. But nobody thought he would die so soon.

HESS: Did you see him again after the time that he was at the Capitol?

WALSH: I saw him again--this was in January, January 20th, when he was inaugurated, then he must have had at least one press conference. I remember going to his office. I'm not sure about that, but maybe in February, or something like that. I don't have any way of checking on that. I have no story that would refresh my memory.

[20]

When I used to cover, you know, for the Providence Journal. I wouldn't write a long story unless he said something about...

HESS: Quonset Point or something.

WALSH: Yes, of course, we were interested in all these big projects, WPA, and other stuff. But the last time I remember seeing him, I'm sure the last time I saw him was on March 4, of '45. It was the White House Correspondents Dinner again, at, I think the Statler. And he came in and he was very chipper. He still looked tired and pretty bad, but nevertheless, he was in a pretty good mood. And we went through the dinner and all this entertainment, and then he made a little talk, and there again, he was seated. At those dinners, he seldom attempted to get up, so nobody expected him to. But he said, "All right, men," it was all men there. I don't think he said "fellows." "All right, men, take out your pencils, I've got something to announce." So everybody grabbed paper and he said, "I'm leaving tonight for..." it wasn't Warm Springs, but I think he said, "I'm going up to Hyde Park."

HESS: He went up to Hyde Park for a few days before he went to…

[21]

WALSH: "And then I am going down to Warm Springs." Then he made just a few remarks, but he was in a good mood. Much better. He didn't look half as tired as he did at the inauguration, or even at some of these press conferences.

Well, I'll finish this story first. Then after the dinner, as I remember, he seldom stayed around. When we get to Truman's career, the President often would stick around a while afterwards and talk with people.

HESS: Visit a little bit.

WALSH: And Eisenhower did too. But Roosevelt went right back to the White House, I'm sure. He left, as I remember, the next morning. That's the last time I saw him.

I was in the Providence Journal that afternoon of April 12, 1945. We were in the Hibbs Building down on 15th, right by the Department of the Treasury. You know where the National Savings and Trust Bank is?

HESS: Cater-cornered across the street. Is that a red brick building?

WALSH: Yes, that's a red brick building. Well, our building--it's still there--was just up the street from that on the east side of 15th Street, between New York Avenue and H.

[22]

Well, we had a teletype in our office. This was about three or four or five o'clock in the afternoon, April 12th. Ordinarily the teletype would be going all the time, and if they had a bulletin, they'd ring the bell, ding, ding, something like that. But all of a sudden--I was there alone--the bell started, ding, ding, ding, ding, like a funeral dirge. And I walked over to it, I couldn't imagine what was the matter, and it said, "President Roosevelt died this afternoon in Warm Springs." I still have that little bulletin.

So, I jumped and ran, really ran, over to the White House, which was only a couple of blocks away. I suppose people wondered what this crazy guy was doing, but I got over there, and certainly I wasn't the first one in the press room who knew of his death. Bob Nixon, I guess, may have been down at Warm Springs.

HESS: Yes, he was.

WALSH: He was, and Doug Cornell. There's a good man. Do you know Douglas Cornell? There would be a very good man to interview. He was down there with Roosevelt. I thought you might be interested in him. He's with the Associated Press, still there. And [Marvin] Arrowsmith, although Arrowsmith, I think, covered mostly during the Eisenhower and Kennedy administrations.

[23]

Doug Cornell was there quite often.

Well, to get back to the White House. I ran over there, and ran into the Press Room. Most of those there weren't regulars covering the White House. The regulars were down at Warm Springs, and the members of the UP and the INS at that time, and the AP, they're there all the time. At this moment, there couldn't have been more than four or five reporters when I got to the White House, and they, of course, had gotten the news. The press services were alerted first. So we went into Steve Early's office.

Eben Ayers was there at that time. When Truman came to the White House, he came in the other way, we didn't see him. By that time they were gathering all the Cabinet members and others. They had gathered in the Cabinet Room, it still is the Cabinet Room there, and you know the layout--you know where Steve Early's office, where the Press Secretary's office was.

HESS: Is that the West Wing?

WALSH: Yes, the West Wing. The press section is on the West Wing. Although President Nixon has revised it quite a bit, but Early's office had a suite of about two rooms, three rooms, and then there was a corridor going east. They had their news tickers out there.

[24]

This led to the other room down there, another corridor, and toward the Cabinet Room and then going from the Cabinet Room to the President's Office, the Oval Room.

First of all, to get back to Wallace, I remember Henry Wallace coming in, big shots were coming in one by one, or two by two. Wallace was literally crying, weeping.

HESS: He was Secretary of Commerce then.

WALSH: He was Secretary of Commerce, yes, and somebody, I had this in a story I just looked at the other day, and somebody had his arm around him, not holding him up, of course, but sort of comforting him. I can't think who it was. Either some Cabinet associate, or some other friend. Wallace was really in tears. And, you know, it's a terrible thing to see a man crying. And he really meant it. As I said, he was emotional, and in spite of the fact that he had lost the Vice Presidency, and maybe he thought Roosevelt didn't quite do the way he should have...

HESS: He might have been the man in the White House that day.

WALSH: Most of them went in the back. But they left the press, by then there were hundreds of us. May

[25]

Craig and I were practically up in the front of the group in the corridor. But they wouldn't let us go in the Cabinet Room. So we were about, I should say as far as from here to the front door from the Cabinet Room, about 20 feet. The door was a little ajar. You've seen that picture where they're all standing in front of the portrait of someone, George Washington, and I could see Truman and Mrs. Truman and Margaret, who was a young girl then, and Chief Justice Stone.

They all came in that entrance, most of them came in, rather than going through the White House, for some reason. I suppose the fact that Roosevelt had died, and the President wasn't there, so most of these Cabinet officers came through the West Wing. I'm sure some came through the East Wing, too, but Wallace and those people came in where the press went in, you know, the West Wing.

Well, we could see them, but the actual swearing in, I can't claim that I saw that. I did see Truman standing there, and then they sort of closed the door a little more, and you could see a little, but couldn't hear anything. So that's the closest I got.

Then we were bombarding Early if the new President was going to meet the press, you know, we wanted to

[26]

talk to him. So Early apparently went in, or had word sent out, but Truman sent out a message, very grateful, he said, but, "Under the circumstances, I think it would not be appropriate for me to meet the press. I'm sorry to disappoint you." Very nice thing. He didn't brush us off, and I'm sure he said it. It wasn't something that Steve Early cooked up.

HESS: I have a question about those events. As you know, Steve Early had been the Press Secretary until on the trip back from Yalta when Pa [General Edwin M.] Watson died, and then he was made Administrative Assistant, and Jonathan Daniels was officially the Press Secretary, and he was, as I understand it, at the White House at this time. Steve Early and Jonathan Daniels were both there. Do you remember seeing Jonathan Daniels?

WALSH: Yes, that's right. There again, I'm quoting Steve Early. It is quite possible that Jonathan Daniels--they were both there, and Eben Ayers was there. Whether they were all there...

HESS: Who seemed to be taking charge of the press, Early?

WALSH: Yes. In my opinion, at least, from what I saw. Of course, we were just badgering everybody we could get, you know. And Eben was just--well, he was the assistant, he was probably the first assistant.

[27]

Eben and I worked together - I don't know if you knew that. Eben worked on the Providence Journal. He was head of the Associated Press in Boston, chief of the bureau there, and he came down to the Journal, in the thirties sometime for four or five years, as sort of executive news editor. He had some title, sort of an overall coordinator between the two papers.

HESS: Is that when you first met him?

WALSH: Yes, that's when I first met him. I had heard of him being in Boston, of course, and I may have run into him in Boston. He was in Harrisburg before that, Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. But he was in Boston several years, quite a few years. That's when I first got to know of him, then I got to know him very well when I came down here.

That's one of the reasons I used to go over to the White House so often, for these briefings, because very frequently he would handle the announcements at news briefings.

In the Roosevelt days, the days that the press conferences were held, they would never announce in advance as they do today, that, "The President will have a press conference on Friday," and this and that. Roosevelt usually had two a week, one in the morning,

[28]

let's see, on a Tuesday…

HESS: Tuesday and Friday.

WALSH: Tuesday and Friday, something like that, and one in the afternoon, and then the briefings every morning by his Press Secretary or Assistant Secretary, but during the Roosevelt administration, that is the period that year I was there, was familiar with it, we would have to call up on Tuesdays or Fridays, "This is Robert Walsh of the Providence Journal. Is the President having a press conference?"

"Yes."

"Well, I'd like to come." You see, tell them that you're coming. It was a security arrangement for some reason. I don't know--well, it would have made a difference. They didn't want a lot of people hanging around, I guess, outside even.

Of course, the minute Truman came in, well, the war was almost over, you know.

HESS: That was probably a wartime security precaution.

WALSH: Of course. When I got down there it was going on, and it must have been on, maybe through most of the war, I don't know. Because the security was very strict, soldiers and everything else, not ostentatiously, but the White House was very well guarded.

[29]

HESS: What would be your evaluation of Mr. Roosevelt's handling of the press conferences? How capable was he at fielding a question, and perhaps not giving a direct answer to a question that was asked?

WALSH: Very capable. To preface the answer to that, the last year, Roosevelt's voice--I forget to mention that--he didn't have a big huge voice, and that was the thing that I noticed first.

HESS: You'd have to be on the first row to hear?

WALSH: You'd have to bend over, he spoke very low, and he was tired, it was a tired low voice.

You know, when you get tired, your voice drops, I think I do it myself, and his voice was very low, but he could speak sharply, and he was the master of ridicule. Well, you've heard many stories about that.

But he was great at dodging a question, evading a question if he didn't want to answer a question.

There's another thing I remember the way press conferences changed. In those days, and I understand even before that, the press conference really didn't, as we know it now, get started until the Hoover--really it was the Roosevelt administration. That's when it got started.

[30]

Hoover had these--things, but there were submitted written questions, and things like that, but Roosevelt really opened it up. But they had this rule--if you asked the President, it was an unwritten rule, but it was understood by every reporter that went there, that if you asked the President a question and he said, "No comment," or declined to comment, that was not to be reported. Do you see what I mean? This was a way of getting around things. "Well, I better not say that." "Well, you wouldn't say that." And, "That's off the record." And they didn't print the full text as they do now so much. I remember that, so a President could pretty much say, "No comment, or "I'd rather not say anything about that right now," you're not supposed to even quote that non-quote. It would give an implication that he was either dodging it or that he's hiding something, or some great disclosure is coming out.

HESS: Was that a wartime precaution, too?

WALSH: It might have been. I don't know. But I remember that distinctly now. I can't say that it applied to every question, maybe some minor little thing, you know. If they were going somewhere, they were very vague on that. You know, now, Nixon, if he's going to

[31]

San Clemente or Kennedy or anybody, we knew--even the news reporters that didn't get over there every day, we knew pretty well when the President was going. Like Truman's famous remark--I remember one day we asked him if he was going--he was going out some place, maybe it was St. Louis, and this isn't much of a trip. And he said, "You know, getting me out of this White House is like putting a circus on the road." And everybody turned to (the poor guy, he died), the transportation man, he was there for years...

HESS: Dewey Long?

WALSH: Long, Dewey Long, yes, and it was a big job but that describes it perfectly.

HESS: I expect Mr. Long agreed with that, didn't he?

WALSH: Yes. But it got even a good deal worse with Roosevelt, to get him on the road. Of course, Truman, well, they couldn't hold him.

But, Roosevelt, they just wouldn't tell you anything about his trips, unless you were going--well, even to Yalta--they'd tell you that he might be going somewhere, but they wouldn't tell you exactly--even a thing like going to church.

Roosevelt didn't go to church like Eisenhower did. Eisenhower used to go almost every Sunday. You'd

[32]

see him down there at the National Presbyterian. And Roosevelt, only once to my knowledge, went up to the St. Thomas Church, you know, that was burned down. You know that church up on 18th Street. It's a beautiful church and it burned just a couple of weeks ago. But when he first came in, I understand, when he first became President in the thirties, he went over there more often, and it got the name of "The President's church."

Like Kennedy used to go down to St. Matthew's Cathedral, or St. Stephen's or Holy Trinity, something like that.

Johnson used to go everywhere, you know.

HESS: He was ecumenical.

WALSH: Yes, he was at the cathedral quite often. The reason I mention the cathedral, I usher down there once in a while, and every President since Grover Cleveland has gone down there for state occasions, for some high mass, or something like that. Nixon, as Vice President occasionally went there. He went there to Kennedy's funeral. He went to Joe McCarthy's wedding. Senator McCarthy was married there. President Nixon attended Vince Lombardi's memorial, the day he was buried in September 1970. They had a memorial mass with the Cardinal there.

[33]

HESS: At the same time they were holding Lombardi's funeral up at St. Patrick's in New York.

WALSH: Yes. Now, I don't say that disparagingly of Nixon, because he does have Sunday services at the White House. Maybe that's a good idea too, because Johnson, you'd never know where he'd show up. Well, that's a little off the track. But Truman used to go to the Baptist Church.

HESS: First Baptist.

WALSH: First Baptist, yes. And I remember it was St. Matthew's, because they have that red mass, as they call it, mainly for the lawyers. It coincides pretty much with the opening of the courts. It is an old tradition, goes way back to medieval days, and they have a high mass, the vestments are all in red, the Chief Justice and most of the Court is there, and the President usually goes, but not always. Johnson went to every one of those and Kennedy, I think, went to one. Nixon didn't go last year but that's a minor matter. As I remember Truman went to one or two of those.

HESS: Well, going back to 1944, what do you recall about the campaign of that year in 1944? Did you travel?

WALSH: Well, I didn't do much on that campaign. After the convention, as I say, I didn't know anything about this

[34]

maneuvering. Of course, I went to the convention sessions, and I was there, when Truman accepted the nomination. As I remember, he was out there but I have no great recollection. Did he make a speech, accepting the nomination at that convention?

HESS: I would suppose that he did, but I really don't remember.

WALSH: Well, I was there because...

HESS: That was one of the first conventions that I remember listening to on the radio, and the thing that sticks in my mind, were the galleries chanting, "We want Wallace."

WALSH: Oh, yes, they were pretty...

HESS: They were pretty well packed with Wallace supporters, I believe.

WALSH: That was the old Coliseum--what did they call it...

HESS: The Stockyards.

WALSH: That wasn't in the Stockyards, as I remember. It was in the--you know that Cicero section of Chicago, it's not too far from downtown Chicago, directly west of the Loop section, instead of way down south. And it was a big building. I think they called it a coliseum, but it's still there, but it's nowhere as big as the Stockyards arena or anything like that. Roosevelt didn't go to that, did he?

[35]

HESS: No, but he went through town, you know, on his way to the West Coast, and he did not attend the convention itself.

WALSH: That's right.

HESS: And then he went on to Los Angeles. And then his acceptance speech was delivered over the radio as he was in San Diego at the time, at the Marine base.

WALSH: Now Truman, as I say, I have no clear recollection. Was the Republican Convention that year before or after the Democratic Convention? It must have been before.

HESS: Usually the "out" party has their first...

WALSH: Yes, I remember distinctly, the Republican Convention--that's when Dewey was nominated. That's when I first met Dewey.

HESS: What were your impressions of Mr. Dewey?

WALSH: Well, I hate to use the phrase, oh, he was a brilliant man, but--"The little man on the wedding cake"--you've heard that. And he was very uncomfortable with the press. That's no secret.

HESS: What seemed to be the basis for his lack of popularity?

WALSH: Well, that is personally. I don't want to do the man an injustice. I can't say I know him intimately. I had a great respect for him, in many ways. He's a

[36]

brilliant man.

HESS: His law career attests to that.

WALSH: He was not snooty but you know the type, and something was in his manner that repelled. But he didn't like the press, and the press didn't like him.

Oh, I think he got fair treatment. But "This little man on the wedding cake," and of course, the sound of his voice. He had a remarkable voice. But he liked the sound of that voice. Those things, but that's where our personal prejudices might come in. However, I used to write quite a bit about him, in '48 especially, and I never let that affect my reporting.

HESS: Did you think he would be a serious contender for fir. Roosevelt in 1944?

WALSH: You know, that's a fascinating question. I don't think he would have been elected--he wasn't elected. I thought you meant--in '44. I was thinking--I thought you were going to ask about Truman. I didn't in 1944. I thought Roosevelt would win.

Let me tell you my own history of voting. Maybe it's typical. As you may have gathered, I am not a registered Democrat, but I usually have voted for Democratic candidates for President. I voted for Roosevelt

[37]

in '32 and '36, but I couldn't take the 3rd term. Meanwhile [Wendell] Willkie came up to Rhode Island, had a press conference, and he really impressed me. I thought he would have made a pretty good President. And the war was--well, of course, we weren't going to get in the war, of course. That was the idea. So, I voted for Willkie in 1940. Then in '44, to show my consistency or inconsistency, I just couldn't take Dewey, so I voted for Roosevelt for a 4th term. I think a lot of people - I don't know that Dewey, Dewey wasn't...

HESS: Many old-line Democrats voted for Willkie in 1940. Of course, Willkie had been a Democrat.

WALSH: Willkie had been a Democrat. Of course, he had a business background. He was the corporation type and all that, but he was the executive, he was the management, you know, rather than the tycoon and that sort of thing, and had a lot on the ball. He died within...

HESS: A very short time.

WALSH: He wouldn't have lived out his term. But to answer the question, I thought Roosevelt would be much better than Dewey in 1944, but of course I thought Dewey was a serious contender. You never know on a

[38]

fourth term. But having broken, in my own case, having broken the third term tradition, I had no qualms about voting for Roosevelt for a fourth term. I really should have given more thought to it--suppose he didn't live through it, you know, who the Vice President would be.

HESS: What seemed to be the general tenor of thought among the public at that time? Did they seem to think when they were voting for Mr. Truman as Vice President that they were voting for the next President, or did people just have the idea that "Roosevelt's here, and he's going to stay."

WALSH: I think so. In my case, as I said earlier, I thought he might not live out the four years, but I thought it would be over, you know. I don't want to give the impression that he looked like a dying man. I thought at the inauguration he was really suffering, and he looked it.

To get to Truman, personally, I wonder if I was influenced in any way in that '44 vote, because Truman was running for Vice President, having come from Missouri, and having gotten to know him well enough to like him, and respect him. I didn't know much about him, just that Truman Committee. Was that the year that Earl Warren ran for Vice President?

[39]

HESS: No, that was '48.

WALSH: That was '48, yes.

HESS: [John William] Bricker ran in 1944.

WALSH: Bricker ran. That was another reason. I couldn't see Bricker. But the Truman thing may have subconsciously had something to do with it. Although I think I would have voted for Roosevelt in any event. Then again--you know, I'm getting too introspective. I wonder if I voted for Roosevelt or against Dewey.

HESS: People do that at times.

WALSH: Yes, they do. And I think that in justice to myself, or in justice to Roosevelt, I don't think I wanted a fourth term particularly, but it's like the lesser of two evils.

Then for once, partisanship didn't come into it. You know, in those years, partisanship wasn't so important. Roosevelt was an extreme partisan in his early years, but with the war coming on, the war, of course, was going on then and it would have made a difference.

HESS: In your opinion, did Mr. Truman's handling of the Truman Committee, the Committee to Investigate the National Defense Program, play a major role in his

[40]

getting the nomination for Vice President?

WALSH: Well, it certainly played an important role. I think so, yes, because that was the only--that and, of course, the support of fellows like Bob Hannegan and Howard McGrath. I think that was an important thing. Of course, that was the main thing that...

HESS: Really put him in the public eye.

WALSH: Yes. And it certainly would have influenced me, because that's the only thing that I ever heard about, the only thing anybody had ever heard about Truman. I didn't know anything about this Kansas City--you know, as I told you, I knew, I'd heard of Pendergast, but I didn't even know that he had been a county judge out there--well, I guess when I came down here I heard it, but I didn't know anything about his background or his education or his political activity, or what kind of a man he was. Very few people did.

HESS: I think we have touched on this subject just a little bit, but I want to ask again anyway. At the time of Mr. Roosevelt's death when Mr. Truman became President, what kind of a President did you think that he was going to make?

WALSH: Truman?

HESS: Truman. How capable did you think that this man from Missouri was going to be?

[41]

WALSH: Well, at the time, this is not hindsight, but at that time, of course, I had my doubts.

I was pretty confident that he would be honest, and one other important factor, I thought he might try to be a good President, because he had a great respect for the Presidency, and he had a great respect for the Government, honesty in Government.

Now, concerning the Pendergast-Kansas City business, I don't think that he was involved. There is nothing to show that he was ever involved in any crookedness. He was loyal to his friends, and that was one of the things he had trouble with on his own, some of the cronies, but personally, I think Harry Truman was a very honest man and a very dedicated man to the welfare of this country. He frequently used to say it and he meant it.

Those were the two things that I thought, "Well, he'll be competent, not the greatest, I don't think he can replace Roosevelt or take Roosevelt's place, it will be a completely different setup." But I said, to myself, "It depends on the people he gets around him:"

You know, this always comes back to what Woodrow Wilson said about when a man comes to Washington and goes into public life, he either grows or swells, and Harry Truman grew. Harry Truman, the last day he left

[42]

here, he was the same fundamentally I think as far as I could tell. But he became--he was very humble at the beginning, there's no question about it, no question about his humility, and he became quite cocky of course at times later on. I think that was his essential nature, a cocky little guy, you know, in the best sense of the word.

HESS: Especially after winning in '48.

WALSH: Well, you could hardly blame him. You know, that famous picture of him holding up the Chicago Tribune, but then towards the end of course he wasn't so popular and he sort of fell from grace.

I'll tell you a little story, it may not be too much off the path, this was towards the end of his term.

Eisenhower had been elected in '52, and this was in January, as I recall, January of 1953. Eisenhower was to be inaugurated the 20th. This must have been around the 15th of January, right about then, and one of the days nobody was paying much attention to the White House. Somebody told me about going in to see him, and Harry was sitting in his office or in the Cabinet Room or someplace, all by himself. And this visitor walked in. This wasn't a newspaperman. But he wanted an

[43]

appointment with the President, and he got his appointment.

He walked in and there was Harry sitting over in the Cabinet Room all by himself and said, "Why Mr. President, I expected to see you surrounded by Secret Service men and Cabinet Officers."

And Harry told this man, "Nobody gives a damn about an ex-President." That was Harry.

Well, this ties in with my little story. I went over one day, was filling in for the regular man, the Evening Star had a regular man at the White House every day, Joe Fox, at that time. You talked to Joe Fox didn't you? Gannett Horner followed him.

HESS: I have Mr. Horner down on my list, but I have not gotten in touch with him.

WALSH: Well, he was covering the State Department for the Star then. He and I pretty much relieved Joe Fox if he was out of town, or on Saturdays or Joe Fox's day off, I would go there; or Horner. Horner went to all the press conferences I remember, to cover diplomatic stuff and I went to cover legislative or district or other matters.

I went over this particular day in January of '53,

[44]

and there were three or four reporters there. Eben or someone came in and said, "The President is going down at noon to Fort McNair, to the Office of Naval War Intelligence, to the officers club, he's going to address some group..." maybe it was Battery D or anyway he was going down there, "and any of you who would like to go down are welcome to go along. So only four of us, well, there couldn't have been more than five or six there, but four of us went down. We got in one car, Truman was in his own car with the Secret Service, and the two car procession left the White House. The President's car with the presidential flag on I remember went down Constitution Avenue and all the way down to Fort McNair. People would see him, and a few would wave, nobody stopped, and I really felt sorry for the poor guy that day.

But we started marching right after him at the officers club, and we were barred at the door. "No Press." And Harry said, "Well, I guess they don't want press, it's just supposed to be a convivial gathering of some sort, but I'll take care of you fellows." There were only four of us, so he got his Aide and said, "Go down and see that these men get something to eat at least in the non-commissioned

[45]

officers mess or in the enlisted mess." So they took us down to the basement of the same building. And that was Harry. He was kind of thoughtful like that. Then he came out and went back the same way, nobody paid any attention on the way back, so that was the way that he went out.

But I don't think that that reflected on him personally. That would have happened to even Eisenhower, I guess. After you're out…

HESS: You're a lame duck.

WALSH: You're a lame duck, that's right.

HESS: Would you compare and contrast, the way that Mr. Truman handled the press conferences with the way that Mr. Roosevelt handled them?

WALSH: Yes, Roosevelt, as I say, this is just on the basis of one year for me. Roosevelt was certainly on the physical decline. I can't say mental decline. He was just as good at warding off questions, and the questions then, when I first came--well, of course, they were about the war and conferences that he'd gone to in those days. But he reserved any major announcements for Congress.

I can't remember any great big story that was coming. There was a favorite question, these fellows

[46]

would just stay up nights trying to figure out some way to trap Roosevelt into disclosing or even hinting whether he would seek a fourth term. This was in '44. There was a major suspicion, but I kind of thought that he would do it. We all pretty much assumed that he would do it, in spite--but he would never deny it, and he was clever at that. You know, just by changing the subject or saying, "Go over and stand in the corner and put a dunce cap on." He would do that when he was mad. I never heard him say that. But he did that once or twice.

HESS: Tell people to do that.

WALSH: Yes. And that was not the worst. You've heard the story of John O'Donnell, of the New York Daily News. Well, he's dead now. This was early in the war. It was before Pearl Harbor anyway. John O'Donnell was very critical of the administration, and lend-lease and all that sort of stuff, not that he was unpatriotic, but it was just that his paper and he didn't want the United States to get involved in this business, certainly not the war, not too deeply involved. He came in one day for this press conference, and Roosevelt had a little box, and he said, "Mr. O'Donnell (as I got the story) I have a little present for you." So he handed the

[47]

box to him, and when he opened it, it was an iron cross, a German iron cross. Now, that's been written often.

Roosevelt, he could be cruel. He could be very sarcastic. He was clever. He was fantastic. But toward the end his voice got so low that many times the AP and UP and INS would--and others, have to get out and compare their notes to be sure that they got the same thing.

And those fellows, they always had priority. They stood right in front of the President's desk. But even from a short distance, from here to there, I had difficulty hearing him. Once in a while, I'd edge up pretty much toward the desk, but you'd have to...

HESS: To get a spot on the first row in the Oval Room would you have to get to the White House and stand in line early?

WALSH: Yes. You know, we'd go in--you know the layout there?

HESS: I've never been in that part of the White House. I've seen drawings of the arrangement however.

WALSH: It would be like this, if this were the front door, you'd come in here, and there was a great big square room, a great big table, and then there was a corridor running down, about where our door was, all the

[48]

way down shut off by guards. There was a partition there at that time, and a corridor which ran right down to the President's office. On the other side would be the corridor which ran into the Press Secretary's office, which also had a corridor running down to the Cabinet Room.

Well, we would come in this way. Say the press conference would be 10 o'clock, and Roosevelt--almost every time I went he was fifteen or twenty minutes late. He'd get to talking to somebody and they were always late. Truman was very punctual. That was one difference right off the bat. Well, the little people would try to make it a point to get there early, perhaps forty-five minutes early to get a place in the front. I remember distinctly waiting at least a half an hour, and sometimes when I couldn't get over there very early I just didn't get up in front. You'd have to go in, one by one, because the Secret Service, you had your card anyway, your credentials to get in, but they'd spot you as you went in. Roosevelt would be sitting at his desk. He had all sorts of things on his desk, papers and everything, cluttered up.

I'll make these comparisons while I think of them. Truman's desk, as a rule, was very neat, very

[49]

orderly. He had in back of him--each of them, there was a table in back of the President's desk, and I suppose Nixon still has one, but in back of him, Roosevelt had several photographs, as I remember, Mrs. Roosevelt. Now, Truman, the only pictures on his desk back there, were of Margaret and his mother and Mrs. Truman, of course. Those three. I don't think he had anybody else. But Roosevelt had all sorts of junk on his desk, you know, things that people had sent him.

Now, Truman had a little joke he liked to pull. It sounds like Truman so much. He had some matches, little things like this, book matches. We kept looking at them, they looked plain white, didn't have any seal on them, just blank, and so he said as we were leaving, "Want some matches, help yourself." So I reached over, several of us grabbed them, just the people who could get to them, most of them didn't care, you know. So, when you turned it over, on the other side it said, "Stolen from Harry Truman." Well, that was like Mr. Truman.

Then, this is the thing I cannot testify to, but I have a vague recollection that on his desk also was a little inscription, a little block or something

[50]

like a paperweight that said, "The buck stops here." He said that several times. But later I think somebody gave him one, and he had it on his desk. That was one of the big differences, that his desk was much more orderly, much less cluttered.

HESS: Do you recall when you first saw that motto on his desk?

WALSH: Well, it must have been pretty late. It wasn't, certainly not the first year, I don't think. It must have been later, because I don't think he used that expression until later.

HESS: Then they moved out of the Oval Room into the Indian Treaty Room

WALSH: Yes, that's where the last press conference was.

HESS: I think that move was made in 1950.

WALSH: I guess that's right.

HESS: Did you think that was a good thing to move out of the Oval Room over to the Indian Treaty Room?

WALSH: Yes, the size of the press conferences just got out of hand. Even during the Roosevelt administration. There weren't as many newspapermen down here in those years, and there weren't as many newspaperwomen. And it was pretty hard, it was much harder to be accredited to the White House than in the Roosevelt than it was

[51]

later, that is, during the war. I can see that.

HESS: They probably wanted to hold down the number of people who were going in.

WALSH: When Truman came in, and even in the last year, particularly when Truman came in, the crowd just got too big, and the people way in the back couldn't hear. Truman always stood; Roosevelt, of course, always sat. Truman was not very tall, you know, and the people in the back couldn't see, but you could hear him. He spoke rapidly, and very precisely, but that was another big difference, of course. I never remember having not heard Truman, but the move was necessary. There's no question about that.

You remember the famous fight over the balcony of course. That time, he had planners and some of his advisers, some planning group that suggested building not only the White House balcony, but an annex to the West Wing, not to the White House, but the West Wing where the Press Secretary was. Below there was the mailing room and all. And then where all the presidential assistants--now, the presidential assistants, most of them have moved over to the Executive Office Building, which was then the old State Department Building. When I came here, that was the State Department.

[52]

HESS: State, War and Navy Building.

WALSH: Yes, State, War and Navy, years ago. Just amazing, all in one place. But that's where I first met Cordell Hull and Stettinius, they were at press conferences and briefings, quite often, almost every day. But I think Truman--he had the idea of having this annex, with sort of an auditorium, very much like Nixon has done now with the old swimming pool. But that was turned down. Congress laughed it off, you know, so he never got anywhere. I remember when he said to newsmen complaining about the facilities, "Well, we're going to move over to the Treaty Room," that's what he called it.

HESS: The Indian Treaty Room.

WALSH: He said, "You know, I just want to remind you men (I don't think he said "men," he probably said "you all." He used that expression "you all" quite often) he said, "I wanted to remind you all that I tried my best to get a bigger facility, but..." I don't know that he said "That do-nothing Congress" but it was Congress that turned it down, some committee up there wouldn't authorize the money. So we did go over there, and he had a few press conferences. That was partly to accommodate the TV and the radio people. The radio people used to come in, but there were no cameras in the

[53]

Oval Room. There was just no room. Even the still photographers, if they got any pictures at all like this one out here, it had to be taken pretty much like a posed--one photographer--it was a pool arrangement I think, two or three, one on one side and one on the other, and maybe one on a stepladder. "Smitty" Merriman Smith, ran into one of those photographers and he broke his leg, he sprained his ankle. I remember that distinctly.

HESS: Did he run into a ladder or something?

WALSH: Yes. As soon as the press conference was over, this was even during Roosevelt's administration, we'd open a wide path so the press services, UP and AP, and INA, some of the people who were right on the deadlines, you know, like the afternoon papers. The Star had sort of a--we also could run out ahead of the others.

Now, when I was on the Providence Journal, that was a morning paper, and I didn't have to break my neck getting out to the Press Room and read the notes and try to figure out the stories. That was a good move over there to the Treaty Room. Eisenhower continued it. Personally, I think it was mainly for the convenience of the TV and radio, which was their right.

[54]

Then Kennedy moved down to the State Department most of the time, and Nixon is using the East Room occasionally. The East Room was never even thought of, I guess, by anybody else. I think Harry Truman never would have gone for that. It would have been like a desecration of holy ground. But that isn't a bad setup. It's a nice room. After all, newspapermen don't tear up a place, and the cameras.

I remember Truman's first press conference in 1945, although, to this day I don't remember what Truman said at his first press conference. He was pretty much, you know--he was either about to make his first address to Congress or after, I don't remember whether the press conference was first--remember, he had to address the Joint Session of Congress. I think he probably went up there first, and I heard that.

That was most impressive. And he quoted from the Bible, "All I want is discernment, and to serve my people and..." He said, "You can't imagine what it means to stand before the people with whom I have served for so many years! It was very moving. And he did a good job, none of the rather awkward gestures that he got into later. I think at that time Jonathan Daniels was pretty much running the press show because

[55]

Steve Early, as I remember, seldom went back. I don't remember seeing him at the White House after Roosevelt's funeral.

HESS: I'm not sure who was there the first time, but do you recall the name, J. Leonard Reinsch?

WALSH: Yes, Reinsch was the first man he brought in.

HESS: Was he there that day?

WALSH: I don't know. I doubt very much the first day, at the first press conference. I seem to remember at a later press conference that Truman announced that he was appointing Reinsch to handle pretty much radio and TV stuff. I don't know that he was the overall--Eben Ayers didn't know whether he was going to stay or not, you know. I remember Eben about a week or so later asked me, "What do you think of the new setup?"

He said, "Well, there are going to be some changes made."

He said, "Not just speaking for myself, this Missouri bunch is coming in." Well, that was a natural assumption. Sure enough, Vaughan and the rest of them did come in, but Eben stayed on. Jonathan Daniels, I don't know how long he stayed there. Then I think the first press man he got was Charlie Ross, wasn't it?

HESS: Charles Ross.

[56]

WALSH: They had a reception--well, let me finish this press conference first. The first press conference of Truman. He more or less made himself available after the first press conference, just to shake hands with anybody who wanted to. So a lot of us lined up, I guess practically everybody lined up. I had previously gone into his office, I don't know that he remembered me. But he did. They always say you can remember a short man or a very tall man, and he knew at least that he had seen this little guy somewhere. So I said, "I'm Robert Walsh of the Providence Journal, formerly of Missouri." I said, "Congratulations, Mr. President, best wishes," and that sort of thing.

He said, "Thank you very much. How would you like to write a little piece for the Providence paper telling the people of Rhode Island [this is in general] telling the people how sorry I am that I must break an engagement I had. I was to have gone up to Rhode Island this weekend for a Jackson Day Dinner, a Democratic dinner up there." I didn't even know he planned to go up there. See, he had been the Vice President. So, I wrote a little article for the Journal and that was the first thing he said to me as President.

Then his last press conference in 1953---before I

[57]

forget, that was in the Treaty Room. After that press conference, which I think that was pretty much just thanking the press--I suppose he meant it--and his relations with the press, to me, were very good, personally. Of course, I'm sure they burned him up many times, there's no question about it, but he never showed any discrimination certainly as far as I saw, towards these kind of opinion people, not like Roosevelt might have, or like John Kennedy; Nixon, I suppose too. They all have their favorites, but Truman handled it well, I think.

After the last press conference was all over--I don't think he announced it--he was about to leave. Vaughan, or one of his people, said, "The President's going back to the White House, but he will be in this little anteroom, right off of the Treaty Room, for any of you who would like to say goodbye." This was just two or three days before Eisenhower was to be inaugurated. So quite a few of us went in, and some didn't. Of course the press people had to run out and send their stuff, but I was surprised how many just didn't go in--didn't exactly turn their back--but they just walked out as they would ordinarily, go back to their offices. And it only took a minute. People didn't exactly stand in long, slow lines either, there weren't that many.

[58]

Quite a few of us went in to say hello to him, just say a word to him. I was talking to somebody in line and turned around and saw that people ahead of me in the line had gone a distance, and there was quite a break. I sort of hurried up, and I can remember President Truman saying, "Don't rush, don't rush."

And you can't help liking the guy--there's another story about the National Press Club, when Charlie Ross became his Press Secretary, I'm pretty sure it must have been this occasion. We had a little reception for Ross over in the lounge. Have you been in the National Press Club, the lounge up on the third floor?

HESS: Yes.

WALSH: And Charlie Ross had been here for years and years, I never knew him, when I worked in St. Louis I used to read his stuff. He was with the St. Louis Post-Dispatch for many years, and of course, was a classmate of Harry Truman's. Well, anyway, we had this--there were free drinks--great big turnout for Charlie. He was very well respected and very well liked. I suppose the Press Club committee knew it, but Truman showed up, unannounced, walked in and stood as we all lined up to shake hands with him. This

[59]

was late in the afternoon, about five or five thirty. They had a bar at one end, everybody had a drink in his hand, and there again, the line moved much more quickly than I thought. I had a drink in my hand, left hand, I guess, bourbon and water or something. I got right up to the President, and I tried to find a place to put this doggone drink, going up to the President of the United States with this--that was very new then. I couldn't put it on the floor, and there was no table there. I got up to him and he sort of grinned so I said, "Congratulations, Mr. President, glad to see you," and all that. I said, "I must apologize for having this thing in my hand. "

And as I remember he replied: "What the hell do you think I have in my hand." In back of him there was a little table. He had pulled around and he had a glass in his hand.

HESS: He had a table to put his on.

WALSH: I can still remember, "What the hell do you think I have in my hand." So that's Harry for you.

HESS: How successful was he in fielding questions at a press conference? If something would come up and he didn't want to give a direct answer, how skillful was he at changing the subject?

[60]

WALSH: Not as smooth as Roosevelt, well, nobody was, I guess. But he wasn't as evasive, I don't mean that in a bad sense.

Now the President's under no obligation to answer questions. They know a great deal more of the impact of a situation, especially when it hasn't jelled, but Truman--at the beginning--especially was quite amateurish. He had been a Senator, and he didn't have any innate dislike for the press or mistrust. I think fellows like Hoover and some of those guys, were maybe rather shy men. They just didn't understand the press, and the aggressiveness of the press.

Reporters are there to do a job and get the story. If you don't ask a good question, you're not going to get an answer. You've got to ask embarrassing questions, if they're not unfair, you know. But Truman, at the beginning, I don't think was too successful. When he didn't want to answer, he was very abrupt. He would just say, "No," and turn to somebody else. Roosevelt would say , "Oh, you know better than that," or "You know better than to ask a question like that." Or "Maybe I'll say something about that next week," but Truman I think later on developed much better.

He was the least impressive when he read something.

[61]

He would frequently read too fast. He improved as a speaker, but he never professed to be an orator. But then he seldom read, except messages at Joint Sessions or formal statements such as on V-E Day, that was in May of '45, and then V-J Day in August of 1945. On both of those days he had a special press conference, in the Oval Room. Mrs. Truman and Margaret were there, and he had Secretary of State Byrnes, Admiral [Ernest Joseph] King, and a lot of the big shots. The President read a statement, and it wasn't at all impressive, he just rattled it off, you know. But then when he started talking about it, he said, "You know, this is one of the brightest days in my life." He looked out the window and it was raining, pouring cats and dogs, so he started to grin. I think he said brightest, or lightest, or one of those things, about the prospect of world peace.

HESS: And it was raining outside.

WALSH: Yes, it was raining outside. He kind of chuckled, you know, and he was in a very happy mood, he would be. Later in his term, after he was re-elected in 1948, he became much more confident, well, naturally, he would be.

Joe Fox, the Star's regular White House reporter was

[62]

one of the few newspapermen in this city who predicted, and was absolutely confident that Truman was going to be elected in '48. He made small bets all over the Star and of course he collected. Fox said, "I never thought he'd do it, I never thought he'd make it until I went out on the campaign trip with him."

I didn't go on any of Truman's campaign trips. I went to the convention, but I didn't do any of the campaign traveling that I did in later years.

Joe said it wasn't only the crowds. When you go on these things, you learn to size up a crowd pretty well, not just the size of them, but their temper. Fox said--not that they had exceptionally big crowds, but they were enthusiastic, not just a bunch of screamers and jumpers like the Kennedy campaign crowds often were. You would get the business element would come down, if only out of curiosity. But they thought, "This fellow must have something. He might be elected." And sure enough, he was.

I remember the same thing with John Kennedy. I am a Catholic, as I said before, and I thought that this Catholic thing would probably be a factor in his defeat, because I lived so long in the South where the Ku Klux Klan was vehement out there when I was a kid. I didn't

[63]

think that would be the main factor, but I thought that was one strike against Kennedy, being Catholic.

Also, I thought the Democrats, in 1960, still had Eisenhower, the father image, to contend with. He hadn't done anything very vast, and sort of muddled through, but he was hard to beat. Then in spite of many things I disagreed with Nixon on, you can't underestimate him, you couldn't even then. I thought when the 1960 campaign started, after the convention, "Well, I kind of think Nixon's going to win this time."

I went on campaign trips and I had an opportunity, fortunately, to be with Kennedy for about three weeks. We went not just to New England, that was natural, that he'd be popular up there, but also to upper New York State which is--now, this wasn't a religious thing--compared to New England there were not as many Catholics up around Buffalo or Rochester and some of those places, and in Ohio and the Middle West, and Illinois, and Missouri. I later went with Lyndon Johnson to Texas as well as New York State and the Midwest. I could see Kennedy develop, there again, growing rather than swelling. He was a terrible speaker, you know, when he was in the Senate. I shouldn't say terrible, but he was a very unimpressive speaker, I thought.

[64]

HESS: I didn't know that.

WALSH: All these years he was in the House with Nixon, he and Nixon came here the same year, in '47, and I never remember John Kennedy making a speech in the House. I went to the House almost every day then. In the Senate he made speeches--well, of course, speechmaking is not the mark of a legislator by any means, but many times, John McCormack used to blast John Kennedy for missing so many committee meetings and House sessions. He was in the Education and Labor Committee, as was Nixon, so they had a career parallel. John Kennedy knew what he wanted. He had the ability all along.

As a speaker, I shouldn't use the word terrible, he wasn't that bad, but he wasn't an impressive speaker by any means, and the New England accent was much more apparent then than it was in later years. But as he got out, it was not only the size of the crowd, like in the Truman experience and the speeches, he developed confidence from the crowds. He had charisma, there's no question about it. He imparted it, and he got it from the crowds. And shortly before the election, toward the end of the campaign, I would have been ready to bet, although I never bet on elections, it's a fatal thing to do, but I would have bet on Kennedy. Of course, he

[65]

almost lost, it was so...

HESS: Do you recall his speech before the Baptist ministers?

WALSH: I wasn't there, but, yes. That was a very exciting speech. That did as much as anything. Because of my background, I felt, "Well, that was just the thing to say." And those fellows weren't bigots. They had legitimate questions.

HESS: Very few members of the Klan there.

WALSH: But I had a great respect for John Kennedy. I liked him too.

HESS: Did you think that Mr. Truman tried to give an honest, forthright answer to the questions that he was asked?

WALSH: Well, yes, if he wanted to answer.

HESS: If he really wanted to answer.

WALSH: If he wanted to answer yes, I think he was very straight forward. I can't remember any specific questions, but there again, if they asked him, well, he indicated it wasn't pertinent to ask him if he was going to run again although it was obvious that he wanted to run again in '48, but toward the end there was some question of whether he would run again in '52. And he had a perfect right to, even under the new amendment. He was opposed to that two-term limit.

[66]

amendment, but not for his own personal--that's true also with the Eisenhower.

HESS: He was exempted from the provisions of the amendment.

WALSH: But they tried to pin him down on that, and I think that he was evasive there. He'd sort of laugh it off, and then he dropped this bombshell. He spoke down there at the Statler. At the end of the speech, I wasn't there that night, the reporters were just about to close their notebooks and he said, "I will not run in '52." And he got a great kick out of that, too, you know.

HESS: When did you first become aware that he was not going to run in '52?

WALSH: Well, I think it was at that time, whenever that was.

HESS: It was the Jefferson-Jackson Day Dinner at the National Guard Armory.

WALSH: Oh, was it at the Armory?

HESS: March 29th.

WALSH: Yes, I thought it was at the Statler. Well, that's when I first became aware.

HESS: Did you hear anything before then?

WALSH: No, I don't recall whether he would or would not. I kind of thought just my personal view, that maybe he

[67]

would not, but I don't know where I got that.

HESS: Why?

WALSH: I don't know. I don't know where I got that idea. I know Mrs. Truman, this was no particular secret, didn't want him to.

HESS: She wanted to go back to Missouri?

WALSH: She was a wonderful woman.

HESS: Did you meet her very often?

WALSH: Yes, well, quite often, yes. When did I first meet her now?

My most memorable meeting with her was, oh, early one morning, Margaret had started her concert tour, and I think it was Detroit. She was out in Detroit or Chicago, she had sung the night before, and she was coming home by train. I was down at the Star office and made the mistake of going in too early that morning and they said, "Get over to Union Station right away. Margaret Truman is coming back from her concert in Detroit [I think] and maybe Harry will be down to meet her."

Well, I got over there and the President wasn't there, but Mrs. Truman was. There were very few people there. Of course, most people didn't know Margaret, and it wouldn't have created a great sensation anyway.

[68]

But I got over there and there was Mrs. Truman with, as I remember, one Secret Service man. And I was the only reporter there, then. I think others with photographers showed up later. The train was about fifteen or twenty minutes late. So I went over to Mrs. Truman and introduced myself and as I remember, that was the first time I met her except at these White House receptions.

I can tell you about those--Harry had those too. So I started talking to her, and I said, "What do you think of her career?"

She said, "Oh, I'm not bothered about it." There had been a little criticism of Margaret's concert career, you know. She said, "Oh, I'm not bothered about that. The only thing that worries me is that Margaret will not be awake when the train gets in." She was a very--Truman best described her, she was a very homey woman, and she was so typical of so many women of the Midwest and every part of the country, too, but she was a wonderful woman.

Now, at the White House receptions, you know, Roosevelt used to have a press reception--this was before I came, and during the war they didn't have it, but they had a reception once a year for all the

[69]

press, the newspapermen and newspaperwomen, and their wives, or their husbands.

That was a big chance for all the wives to dress up and go down there. It was usually in the evening, and it was formal. You'd wear tuxedoes, and the President would stand in line and it would be the same old thing, go in the East Room and get something--he had about three punchbowls, and the trick was to find out which one of the punchbowls in the East Room--not the East Room, but the dining room--which of the ones was spiked. Nobody would get enough to drink to get obstreperous. But we went to two receptions as I recall. Roosevelt had these things in the thirties, they were generally beer parties, they had beer kegs out in the backyard, but as soon as the war came that all stopped: Truman resumed them for a few years. I think it must have been, not '45, because the country was pretty much still in mourning for a year, so it must have been in--as a matter of fact, I don't think he had any until after '48. He may have had one in '46 or '47.

But at any rate, he had two or three, but that's immaterial. The thing is, he would stand there, an. aide would get your name and say, "Mr. President, Mr.

[70]

Walsh," or "Mr. and Mrs. Walsh." When I got up to him, in my case, and in others too, instead of having an aide, and passing on to Mrs. Truman, he would turn and say, I don't think he said, "Dear," or anything like that, but he said, "This is Mrs. Truman." That is how he'd introduce us to his wife.

Now, no other President--as far as I know--did that. As for diplomatic receptions, I don't know how they work that. I don't think they do it. But Truman did that, at least at the ones I remember. In the line they usually want the man to go first because he'd be the newsman and would have to be introduced to the President by the aide. Then I would turn and introduce my wife to the President. The Trumans’ were very gracious and friendly.

Mrs. Truman didn't like the job but she was a gracious woman, and she was perfectly at home. This protocol and formality didn't faze her, maybe not the glamour stuff like Jackie Kennedy. Mrs. Eisenhower was a wonderful woman.

HESS: Concerning Mr. Truman's answers at his press conferences, I have read some criticism because of his short answers, that he did not really try to use the press conference as a medium of educating the public.

[71]

Do you think he would have been more effective had he tried to use the press conference in that manner? Would his press conferences have been more effective?

WALSH: Well, I'll tell you that at the beginning he was not effective, his answers were not complete enough, and he didn't offer very much. But, we must remember the circumstances under which he came in. Now, if he had tried, and I don't know whether he did it purposely, maybe he did, if he had tried to be too effective, he would have been criticized even more.

If he had tried to propagandize or educate the public that first year, or even until 1948 when he was re-elected, if he had tried to be too dynamic and too like Roosevelt and some of the others.

I'm sure he was sincere but I can remember after his first two or three press conferences, some of the press people walking out, and they would just say, "Oh, gee, what a guy. He'll never be another Roosevelt." Well, nobody expected him to be.

I remember some fellow, I can't remember who, I didn't even know him, it was one of the financial papers like the Wall Street Journal, or the Journal of Commerce, or something, asked some question that

[72]

was very complicated even for Wall Street--and Truman gave a very quick answer, "I don't know anything about the stock market," or one of those things, you know. He shouldn't have said it so abruptly. He didn't say, "I don't care about it," but he sort of implied, "Well, what's the stock market." It was either that the stock market had gone up as a result or gone down. He said, "I don't pay any attention to that." And so as newsmen were walking out and I heard him say to somebody, "Well, that man is President of the United States and doesn't understand the stock market." Well, it might have been fair in response to that particular question.

Now, in later years, Truman was more careful, and I'm sure he learned a great deal more about the stock market. He was quite a student, you know. He had books on or near his desk. That's an old gag, perhaps, books that you're supposed to be reading, but Truman loved history, and he often said he always studied it, American history particularly.

He was not a lawyer, although he was a county judge, like the commissioner sort of thing. But he apparently had read quite a bit about the law, and he had Fred Vinson and some of his main Justice Department people, to help him. I think he set some sort of

[73]

a precedent, I was trying to find--I remember writing a story--and I can't find it. But I was covering the Supreme Court when either Vinson or Burton--Senator [Harold] Burton was a pal of his, a Republican, and there was a Republican vacancy or what was considered to be a Republican vacancy. I think Burton was the first, or maybe Vinson was appointed to the Supreme Court. I think it was probably when Vinson was sworn in as Chief Justice, Truman went up to the Supreme Court and just walked in--well, few knew he was coming, of course, and he was seated in the courtroom. And they said that was the first time--maybe not in history, that's a long time--but in many, many years that a President went up to see one of his appointees sworn in either. It was very formal. He made no speech. Well, of course, there was no Chief Justice, Chief Justice Stone had died.

Stone died the day I went on the Star--it was the first story I wrote for the Washington Star, his obituary--he died that day in '46. Truman nominated Vinson as Chief Justice, to replace Stone.

And whoever opened the Court, it must have been Justice Black, the next ranking man, he recognized, announced that the President had honored the Court by

[74]

being there, and "Welcome, Mr. President." Truman just got up and bowed. He didn't throw his weight around or anything. And he left immediately after the swearing in. He didn't listen to any of the others. But I'm not sure that that's a precedent, but the old-timers said they had never heard of such a thing.

Now it's happenstance. I think Lyndon Johnson went up, and Eisenhower probably went up. So, Truman may have set a precedent there, I don't know. But there again, it was his friend. And Vinson, of course, was a very, very close friend of his. Vinson had been Secretary of the Treasury, and previously a judge and a Congressman on the House Ways and Means Committee. Of course, Truman had a few unfortunate people in his administration.

HESS: Who would you place in that category?

WALSH: Well, you know the only scandal, there was really no major scandal, but they had the deep-freeze episode. I covered those hearings, most of the hearings before the Senate, I think it was the Government Operations Committee. Senator Ferguson, as I remember, was on that committee. Well, Vaughan was a very nice guy, and he was very helpful to us. There was the crony charge. I don't know too much about him.

[75]

Some of Truman's appointments to the commissions were unfortunate. The RFC, Reconstruction Finance Corporation, there was a major scandal there. Do you remember Merle Young. Merle Young's wife worked as one of Truman's secretaries, you know, personal secretaries. She had been with him at the Capitol. Merle was just one of the underlings, and he had to take the rap, but there were several others then. Of course, later one of Truman's secretaries--you know, the fellow from St. Louis was indicted for something or other, what was his name? I ought to know it, I knew him very well.

HESS: After the administration was over Matthew Connelly had a little difficulty.

WALSH: Matt Connelly.

HESS: He was from Massachusetts.

WALSH: I guess , he was, yes.

HESS: The trial was held in St. Louis.

WALSH: That's right. But when I say "unfortunate" I mean unfortunate in the sense that some people like that, they got in trouble later on. And then the McGrath incident. McGrath was a Senator, Solicitor General, and then Attorney General. Of course, I followed that because having known McGrath personally

[76]

for so many years, then he having been Governor when I was in Rhode Island, and I saw him quite frequently and he got into a jam on the Newbold Morris controversy.

HESS: All right, sir, since we had mentioned J. Howard McGrath and the Newbold Morris episode, what do you recall about that?

WALSH: Well, my connection with it was not only through McGrath,, knowing him personally, but I covered the Justice Department for the Star. In those days on the Star they didn't have the great age of specialization which they have now. I'd covered the Supreme Court for ten years, and the lower courts, too. I covered a lot of the courts like the Court of Appeals, and the District Courts, and I always liked court work, because I did cover the old courthouse in St. Louis, and then, of course, in Providence. But I also liked the legislative, even better. So I covered the Capitol.

You'd go up in the morning to the Capitol and then the Supreme Court. The Court convened at noon and you'd have the decisions only once a week. But in connection with the Supreme Court, I covered the Justice Department, and the Star sent me over there mainly because they knew that I knew McGrath, not that I ever got very much, but his was more or less

[77]

a routine administration, except for one or two things like this--the later blowup.

Newbold Morris, as I remember, was a professional reformer, I shouldn't say that, but, you know, he was the "clean government type," and he was always down here, quite often down here testifying before some committee, what ought to be done about government in New York City and all that sort of thing. And he was personable enough, and was very able, I think. But he had that reputation of being do-gooder, which I suppose didn't help him too much.

So he came down here, as I remember Truman picked him, didn't he, to look into some shenanigans, or suspected shenanigans in the Justice Department, or maybe all departments. McGrath, as I remember, refused, among others, McGrath wasn't the only one, but McGrath refused to disclose his own, or some of his associates' financial holdings--was that it? See, I'm a little vague on this.

HESS: Newbold Morris and his associates had developed a rather lengthy questionnaire that they wanted various people in Government to fill out and turn in, and it did not go over very well.

WALSH: I wrote a full page--this was for a Sunday story,

[78]

and they took the whole page in the editorial section on this questionnaire, pointing at all of these things. It was just the whole history of your life and beyond that almost. That's digressing, but that's how I do remember it now.

HESS: Do you remember where you got your copy of that questionnaire?

WALSH: Well, I don't know. You know, I wonder if it was before or after--oh, I remember seeing it, or seeing what it was purported to be. I remember writing the story about it. I wish I could find it for you, but I haven't got a copy of it as such, but I wrote the story about it, listing most of the questions. I don't recall. It's possible that somebody in the office, somebody else might have gotten it. I know McGrath didn't give it to me. As I remember, wherever I got it...

HESS: As I understand the story, none of the questionnaires were actually sent out. They were just run off, people knew about them, but Newbold Morris and his people said, "We are going to send them." But I don't believe that any were officially sent out.

WALSH: And I wasn't the only one. There were several stories at that time. I may be exaggerating this, but I

[79]

do remember that thing and the type of questions. Maybe I didn't have the full text, there again, it's not quibbling, but I remember distinctly in the office that we had the thing and we had something that purported to be a lot of these questions, let's put it that way. At least part of it. There were leaks all over the place, I'm sure there were, and somebody may have gotten a copy, may have picked it up at the White House. I'm sure the White House must have seen it. Maybe a White House man, Joe Fox might have--or maybe I got it. I remember talking to McGrath about it, and he said, "Well, I'm not going to--some of those questions are..." I don't know whether he said irrelevant, "...just have no right subjecting anybody, it's not only me. I have nothing to conceal." I don't know that he did.

Poor Howard, he's dead now. I've always thought that he covered up for a lot of people, perhaps not covered up. I don't think he did anything dishonest. But there was something wrong in that Justice Department, and in the administration or with some of the actions that he either condoned, or maybe if he had spoken up...

HESS: What seemed to be wrong?

[80]

WALSH: I don't know. I don't know. Who was the fellow from South Carolina or North Carolina, he wasn't in the Justice Department, but it was in the administration. McGrath was pretty much the political man like the Postmaster General used to be. I remember McGrath, this is digressing again, but before the election, he came over to see us at our home. I still remember, him and his wife, just the four of us, sitting in the room in there, and I said, "It looks kind of bad for Truman."

And he said, "No, let me tell you, Harry Truman is going to be elected."

HESS: This was ' 48?

WALSH: '48. It must have been--it was after the convention, sometime after the convention, maybe in September or October, and he said, "No, Harry's going to be elected."

And I said, "Well, you're..."

And he said, "No, I'm not talking for myself. We have very good reason to believe that he has an excellent chance."

HESS: What reasons did he give?

WALSH: Well, he thought pretty much like Joe Fox said in hindsight, he said, "Harry Truman has the people behind him, and there are so many people who don't like Dewey."

[81]

I think he gave that reason. He also had campaign reports from all over the country.

HESS: Was this during the campaign?

WALSH: Yes, I can't remember quite how he happened to be here, because during the campaign was a very busy time, but it was after the convention--Truman had been re-nominated--and he stopped by and had dinner here.

HESS: The campaign got underway, as they usually do, when Mr. Truman made a speech in Detroit, at Cadillac Square, and then not too long after that were the several trips that Mr. Truman took.

WALSH: Of course, McGrath didn't go on all the trips with him. McGrath was usually here, and McGrath was then--what was he, Solicitor General or was he a Senator?

HESS: He was Senator at that time.

WALSH: He wouldn't be traveling.

HESS: Well, he was Chairman of the Democratic National Committee.

WALSH: He was the chairman. And Hannegan had been before him. Not that I ever got much out of them, but those two people, whom I knew better probably than anybody

[82]

else in the administration, personally, they were the Democratic National Chairmen for all those years.

HESS: Did Mr. McGrath say why he agreed to take the post as Chairman of the Democratic National Committee?

WALSH: No, I remember when he took it.

HESS: A lot of people were expecting a downfall of the Democrats that year, in other words, it was not a choice plum.

WALSH: No, no. And Truman, I think, had trouble filling it. That's one thing. Among other things, this is not a religious issue again, but McGrath, of course, was Catholic. Hannegan was a Catholic. Jim Farley was a Catholic.

HESS: Didn't it used to be a sort of an unwritten rule that when the President was Protestant, back in the days when Presidents were Protestants, that the head of the Democratic National Committee, or the head of the committees, had to be Catholic?

WALSH: Well, some of the big cities had large Catholic populations, that was probably one of the big reasons. But Truman, I think, thought he probably would be wise to get McGrath. Now, McGrath was no novice.

HESS: He had been in politics a long time.

WALSH: McGrath started out in politics in the cradle, we used to say.. He had been Democratic state chairman

[83]

in Rhode Island before he was Governor. He was a very young man when he was Governor, he was in his early forties. Then he became Senator. I don't know if that's the greatest mistake he ever made or not, I think he never admitted it, but I think he agreed, a great mistake to leave the Senate. He could have stayed in the rest of his life, what would he be now? Of course, he's dead now.

HESS: He might still be alive too, if he'd stayed in the Senate.

WALSH: Oh, yes, if he'd stayed in the Senate. Another reason I think Truman may have appointed him, had a great influence in this, and I know this from Senator Francis Green, who served for many, many years.

Green had been state chairman for many, many years before McGrath, and McGrath was pretty much his protege. Green lived to about ninety-five or so. He helped Howard along. And McGrath was very loyal to him. And I think Truman and Green were quite friendly. As a matter of fact, when Truman became President or when he made his first address to Congress, Green who was not very lavish in his compliments of anybody, issued a very flowery statement, praising Truman to the skies: This man has got real promise for peace and this and this and

[84]

this. Green also said he recommended Howard McGrath as national chairman. But as I remember, nobody else wanted the job. Who were you going to get?

HESS: I know they had a very difficult time filling the post of treasurer. They finally got Louis Johnson.

WALSH: But that's the only thing I know about that. Howard never said anything.

HESS: You know, Mr. Truman called him up on the phone and requested his resignation. Did you ever speak to Mr. McGrath after that time?

WALSH: Yes, and he never mentioned it. I never really asked him.

As for Truman calling him up, I heard that story that Truman called him on the phone. And Truman held a press conference that same afternoon he fired him. McGrath refused to resign, wasn't it, or something? He fired him anyway. He demanded it.

HESS: McGrath preferred not to resign.

WALSH: Well, of course, when a President wants the resignation of a Cabinet officer, you've got to. Truman had this press conference, and right off the bat he said, "The only reason I have called this is to announce that I have accepted (as I remember) the resignation of J. Howard McGrath." Then there were a million questions.

HESS: Were you there at that press conference?

[85]

WALSH: As I remember, he didn't give any further reasons at the press conference. I don't remember any.

Yes, I was there. I'll tell you why. I was over at the Capitol and having covered that Newbold Morris blowup and also the Justice Department, the Star called me or had me go down to the White House when they knew Truman...Joe Fox may have been there too, but I was just supposed to watch this Newbold Morris thing. I remember writing a story.

I remember talking to Howard later, I did ask him in later years, "Do you still get along with Mr. Truman?" This was after Truman was out. Well, it was within the last--Howard's been dead about two years now, I guess. This may have been five or six years ago.

And he said, "Truman and I were always personal friends. He may have looked mad at times." And in later years, they did have some sort of a public reconciliation, didn't they?

HESS: Yes.

WALSH: McGrath was kind of pathetic. He was a millionaire, you know. He made a lot of money, and honestly, I think. He was tied in with a lot of Rhode Island industrial people.

[86]

HESS: Savings and loan.

WALSH: Savings and loan, that's where he got his start, yes. But he was always itching to get back into national politics, after, of course, he was out completely. In the 1956 campaign, that's when Kefauver was nominated, for Vice President with Stevenson. I remember traveling around with Kefauver, and as pretty much his principal adviser, but J. Howard McGrath, who, of course, had been close to Kefauver--they had been Senators together. And they were very much alike.

Kefauver was quite a liberal, and McGrath was. His credentials were liberal, and he just went down the line for him pretty well, so it wasn't any break with Truman on that, or with the party either.

And I think that thankless job as national chairman, he did it as well as anybody could. As a matter of fact, they said he did it too doggone well.

HESS: Is that one of the hazards of the news field, getting too close to the people that you are trying to report on?

WALSH: Well, it is a danger sometimes.

HESS: Losing your standard of objectivity.

WALSH: You either get to like--that's what they used to say

[87]

of Dewey, I shouldn't talk so much about Dewey, because I really didn't know him too well, but we had a little newspaper cliche there, "To know Dewey is to hate him." You know, you used to say, "To know Joe Doakes is to love him."

Dewey got an unfriendly reputation among the press, from what I hear, when he was Governor of New York, and even before that when he was District Attorney in Manhattan. He had what they call a dossier on people he didn't like, not just newspapermen, he had a filing system of people he didn't like, and he'd keep this stuff. I think this was probably the way Dewey worked. Now that's not particularly bad. I'm sure Johnson--I'm sure others do. But this is sort of a vindictive thing, to get something on somebody.

One or two of the fellows, it could have been Pete Brandt, I don't want to quote anybody particularly, my recollection of it, h